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PN1 or PN9 for a Ram Air Water Canopy?
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John_Scher

Nov 27, 2019, 10:31 PM
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PN1 or PN9 for a Ram Air Water Canopy? Can't Post

 
Can anyone advise what is the best canopy fabric for a water canopy?

There's a ton of data from different sources, some mentioning that PN9 doesn't do so well if repeatedly wet & dried however it is a thinner weave, lighter fabric so I thought it might be better as it might dry quicker.

(This post was edited by John_Scher on Nov 27, 2019, 10:47 PM)

StraightEdge

Nov 27, 2019, 10:41 PM
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Re: [John_Scher] PN1 or PN9 for Water Rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you need to specify whether you want a round or a RAM air canopy. It makes a difference. It would have helped if you said PN1 or PN9 for a water canopy, rather than a water rig; material selection for a container is another matter.

You're welcome, John! Wink

TomAiello

Nov 28, 2019, 5:23 AM
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Re: [John_Scher] PN1 or PN9 for a Ram Air Water Canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Fresh or salt water?

I'd personally go with PN1, because it will be cheaper and tougher, and you'll get more jumps out of it before needing to replace it.

For a dedicated water canopy, I think you'd be wasting money to get PN9.

John_Scher

Nov 28, 2019, 5:27 AM
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Re: [TomAiello] PN1 or PN9 for a Ram Air Water Canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

TomAiello wrote:
Fresh or salt water?

I'd personally go with PN1, because it will be cheaper and tougher, and you'll get more jumps out of it before needing to replace it.

For a dedicated water canopy, I think you'd be wasting money to get PN9.

Thanks Tom,

That makes sense to me

StraightEdge

Nov 28, 2019, 6:23 AM
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Re: [TomAiello] PN1 or PN9 for a Ram Air Water Canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

For a dedicated water canopy, I think you'd be wasting money to get PN9.

What about ZP?

TomAiello

Nov 28, 2019, 7:19 AM
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Re: [StraightEdge] PN1 or PN9 for a Ram Air Water Canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the idea round for a water jump would be all ZP, actually. More durable, doesn't soak up water and therefore dries faster (if you can spread it out), and also pressurizes faster. Unfortunately, there are exactly zero all-ZP rounds available today.

For a square, I think the ZP would be desirable if all else was equal. But given how I personally use water rigs, I wouldn't go to the expense, just to beat it up. The improved flare from the ZP obviously won't be very useful in water landings.

For "beater" water rigs my strategy is always to go cheap and replace them.

For a true "upscale" water rig I'd go with a light container (no padding so it won't suck up water) closed with pins (the shrivel flap soaks up water too), stainless hardware (for repeated water landings to minimize corrosion), and no riser covers. Basically minimize everything you don't need, and pair it with an all ZP round. Marty at Asylum basically built me a container to that spec many years ago, and I still have it. Unfortunately the matching canopy is at the bottom of the Snake River, after being cut away by a student during a course.

I'm still trying to convince Jacob to reverse engineer my lone remaining Tektite and build me one (or more) of them out of ZP.

StraightEdge

Nov 28, 2019, 7:37 AM
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Re: [TomAiello] PN1 or PN9 for a Ram Air Water Canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting, thanks for the detailed response.

What about container materials, e.g. parapack, alien skin or vx21? And aluminium leg and chest strap buckles?

John_Scher

Nov 28, 2019, 10:53 PM
Post #8 of 15 (500 views)
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Re: [StraightEdge] PN1 or PN9 for a Ram Air Water Canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

StraightEdge wrote:
Interesting, thanks for the detailed response.

What about container materials, e.g. parapack, alien skin or vx21? And aluminium leg and chest strap buckles?

I dont know if this is up to date or even if its even relevant:

August 19, 2007
Dear all
Alien skin is our Trade Mark for a 3D woven fabric made from 500 denier original Dupont Cordura fiber.
It is woven in Gemany exclusively for Paratec and TSE.
It is as durable as 2D Cordura (as you know it) but has this nice matt/shiny texture.

It has nothing to do with Sunpath's Diamondback, which is appliqued on top of a Cordura or Parapack backing, but not as a load carrying fabric such as Alien Skin.

If you need any more info on it, please contact me under stefan@paratec.de

Best Regards

Stefan Ertler
Paratec GmbH
Germany

John_Scher

Nov 28, 2019, 11:02 PM
Post #9 of 15 (499 views)
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Re: [StraightEdge] PN1 or PN9 for a Ram Air Water Canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

StraightEdge wrote:
Interesting, thanks for the detailed response.

What about container materials, e.g. parapack, alien skin or vx21? And aluminium leg and chest strap buckles?


VX21, also known as Xpac
Made by the sailcloth manufacturer Dimension-Polyant, VX21 is a laminate fabric. The four layers combine to create a durable and waterproof fabric. The top side is composed of woven nylon for abrasion resistance and water repellency with a DWR coating. The X-Ply provides dimensional stability and tear strength. A PET laminate adds additional waterproofness and is protected by a 50D polyester taffeta backing.

TomAiello

Nov 29, 2019, 8:38 AM
Post #10 of 15 (466 views)
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Re: [StraightEdge] PN1 or PN9 for a Ram Air Water Canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd go for materials that are as light as possible, with minimum water retention (for fast drying). I wouldn't sacrifice strength for it, though, because you can always pack a wet container and just jump it again.

I would have no problem with aluminum (note that I've spelled the word properly there--to quote you "you're welcome" Wink), but I think stainless steel is going to be fine. If you want to go with the "all out" option, Marty at Asylum has made some rigs with titanium hardware, which would be light, strong, and immune to rust, but substantially more expensive.

StraightEdge

Nov 29, 2019, 11:48 AM
Post #11 of 15 (450 views)
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Re: [TomAiello] PN1 or PN9 for a Ram Air Water Canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

You just couldn't resist. Smile

bluhdow

Dec 1, 2019, 8:53 AM
Post #12 of 15 (389 views)
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Re: [John_Scher] PN1 or PN9 for a Ram Air Water Canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Definitely PN1 ("F-111") for all the reasons Tom mentioned. It's cheaper, more resistant to acute damage, and will be easier to replace ($) when needed.

The Apex DPw was designed with all of Tom's points above in mind (lightweight, closed cell foam for faster drying, etc.) and pairs well with a wide range of F-111 water rounds (H2O, old round reserves, etc.).

While it might make sense to get a nicer container, because it will last beyond multiple canopies, go for a canopy that's cheap and beat it up. That's what it's for.

To my knowledge, only Apex and Blacksheep are actively building water rigs these days.

John_Scher

Dec 6, 2019, 10:49 AM
Post #13 of 15 (287 views)
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Re: [bluhdow] PN1 or PN9 for a Ram Air Water Canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Somewhere I've once again missed the link between water jumps and rounds. I did raise this point some time ago in a previous thread and didn't really get a good answer other than that they are cheaper than squares.

From what I understand they don't perform better than squares and have a higher malfunction rate so just what is it that I'm not getting?

Perhaps its because they're different? Is that it? Fun in some way? What like jumping a single skin Paradactyl or a 5 cell Stratostar. Really?

(This post was edited by John_Scher on Dec 6, 2019, 10:59 PM)

bluhdow

Dec 6, 2019, 3:23 PM
Post #14 of 15 (257 views)
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Re: [John_Scher] PN1 or PN9 for a Ram Air Water Canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

You can take them deeper. Pun!

I don't have much round experience, but I would imagine they dry a lot faster due to being a single layer. Cost is also a factor on a canopy you basically plan to destroy in far fewer jumps than a BASE canopy used more normally.

As for your original question about a ram-air...F-111 all the way. Just no red. That color tends to bleed a lot more than the others.

TomAiello

Dec 12, 2019, 8:51 AM
Post #15 of 15 (83 views)
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Re: [John_Scher] PN1 or PN9 for a Ram Air Water Canopy? [In reply to] Can't Post

John_Scher wrote:

Somewhere I've once again missed the link between water jumps and rounds. I did raise this point some time ago in a previous thread and didn't really get a good answer other than that they are cheaper than squares.

Perhaps its because they're different? Is that it? Fun in some way? What like jumping a single skin Paradactyl or a 5 cell Stratostar. Really?

That's it. Different, fun and cheap.

Most water jumps don't require a good landing or flare so the steering and flare characteristics of a square aren't required. And since repeated water landings wear gear out, people tend to go cheap on them.

I've jumped both several 5 cells into water, but I've never had a paradactyl to play with.


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