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High Air Speed PC's - Small/Large Hole Mesh?
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John_Scher

Sep 25, 2019, 2:09 AM
Post #1 of 10 (650 views)
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High Air Speed PC's - Small/Large Hole Mesh? Can't Post

 

I currently use Toxics with Large Hole Mesh for all sub-terminal stuff and I can see the reasoning behind using Large Hole Mesh at Slower Air Speeds.

I need to get a PC for Terminal Tracking. I watched thru the APEX video where Todd explains why they use Small Hole (fine mesh) on their Higher Air Speed PC's. It makes sense as does using Small Hole Mesh on Sliders for Terminal High Air Speed deployments.

However I can't find any other manufacturer including Asylum and Squirrel who advocate Small Hole Mesh for High Air Speed PC's. They all use Large Hole Mesh.

If Small Hole Mesh makes sense for Sliders in High Air Speed deployments why do manufacturers differ about High Air Speed PC's?

(This post was edited by John_Scher on Sep 25, 2019, 10:49 AM)

Fledgling

Sep 26, 2019, 4:39 AM
Post #2 of 10 (538 views)
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Re: [John_Scher] High Air Speed PC's - Small/Large Hole Mesh? [In reply to] Can't Post

John_Scher wrote:
If Small Hole Mesh makes sense for Sliders in High Air Speed deployments why do manufacturers differ about High Air Speed PC's?

Two very different purposes. Small mesh obviously slows passage of airflow. So obviously the small mesh sliders are used to slow down deployments at higher airspeeds due to it slowing slider descent.
Mesh on PCs obviously exists to allow air into the PC. Using small mesh here would obviously slow PC inflation. Why would you want that? Why would you want a PC out there flopping around until it is finally inflated enough to do its job? If I throw my PC I want it working already.
Ultimately, both work, both do the job, I have used both successfully hundreds of times. Just another way to tailor your equipment to your own preference.

John_Scher

Sep 26, 2019, 4:56 AM
Post #3 of 10 (532 views)
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Re: [Fledgling] High Air Speed PC's - Small/Large Hole Mesh? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Two very different purposes. Small mesh obviously slows passage of airflow. So obviously the small mesh sliders are used to slow down deployments at higher airspeeds due to it slowing slider descent.
Mesh on PCs obviously exists to allow air into the PC. Using small mesh here would obviously slow PC inflation. Why would you want that? Why would you want a PC out there flopping around until it is finally inflated enough to do its job? If I throw my PC I want it working already.
Ultimately, both work, both do the job, I have used both successfully hundreds of times. Just another way to tailor your equipment to your own preference.


As you say small mesh slider slows down terminal deployments making them tolerable and I believe that opting for a smaller size PC effectively reduces the snatch force thus preventing centre cell strip and again making terminal deployments tolerable. Wouldnt the same logic apply to the mesh on the PC? Marginally slow down the snatch force to prevent centre cell strip and perhaps make the terminal opening tolerable?

AntoineLaporte

Sep 26, 2019, 2:48 PM
Post #4 of 10 (471 views)
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Re: [John_Scher] High Air Speed PC's - Small/Large Hole Mesh? [In reply to] Can't Post

As said previously small mesh make the inflation of the PC slower, and I don't see any case where you would like that.

Just to add my small contribution the PC size does not change the opening strength of the canopy but how fast it happends.

hjumper33
Moderator
Sep 26, 2019, 3:24 PM
Post #5 of 10 (469 views)
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Re: [John_Scher] High Air Speed PC's - Small/Large Hole Mesh? [In reply to] Can't Post

Fwiw I have terminal pilot chutes that are large mesh, small mesh, ZP, and F11 in almost every configuration. I don’t really notice much of a difference in opening or snatch force/hesitation on any of these. I think the size and fabric used for the actual fabric pulling component of the pc (f111 vs zp) makes more of a difference than the mesh. Most small mesh feels less robust/more easy to tear/wear to me. Small mesh sliders last plenty long, but they get dragged around a lot less than pilot chutes.

Nothing against apex/todd at all as they’re always trying to innovate, but some of their thinking goes against my basic theory of KISS in base (the entire concept of the multi, complicated static line rigging, front pouch for handheld). But just the same, this is just my opinion, which means as much as you want it to.

bluhdow

Sep 26, 2019, 3:56 PM
Post #6 of 10 (465 views)
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Re: [John_Scher] High Air Speed PC's - Small/Large Hole Mesh? [In reply to] Can't Post

From Todd (owner of Apex), paraphrased:

When they first started playing with different builds they found that small mesh on sub-terminal PCs was absolutely a contributor to hesitations. Using large mesh on all PCs 38" and larger is important to encourage fast PC inflation.

Only Apex 36" and 32" PCs get small mesh. Todd found that using small mesh reduced the "harshness" of the openings (all else being equal) without creating hesitations. If you're using a 36 or 32...you're going fast. Air moves through the small mesh quite freely at those speeds.

Personally, I use an Apex 38" with large mesh when I WS and it works great. When I'm slick or two piece tracking and hauling ass, the softer openings of the 36/32 have been favorable on my brain and back.

I wouldn't say that small mesh makes a PC more complicated. It's just another small lever (of many) which we can pull to affect our opening speeds.

Fledgling

Sep 26, 2019, 5:27 PM
Post #7 of 10 (452 views)
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Re: [John_Scher] High Air Speed PC's - Small/Large Hole Mesh? [In reply to] Can't Post

John_Scher wrote:
Wouldnt the same logic apply to the mesh on the PC? Marginally slow down the snatch force to prevent centre cell strip and perhaps make the terminal opening tolerable?

Short answer. No. Comparing a "smaller" PC with a "small mesh" PC is incorrect. A small mesh PC, in my opinion, simply delays the throw to PC pulling part of the deployment. If avoiding center cell strip is your objective then appropriately sized PCs is the correct solution. Not delaying PC inflation. That being said we know both work, not to mention the millions upon millions of skydives made with small mesh.

hjumper33
Moderator
Sep 26, 2019, 5:39 PM
Post #8 of 10 (452 views)
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Re: [bluhdow] High Air Speed PC's - Small/Large Hole Mesh? [In reply to] Can't Post

A fair enough reason, but do you think the mesh softens the opening more or in a different mechanism than just taking the pilot chute size down a little? Isn’t snatch force snatch force? (Haha....snatch)

My understanding of small mesh, is that is allows less air/slows inflation. That’s why we use it in sliders, slows it down more than a large mesh. In my mind slowing pilot chute inflation is never a good idea, ie your point about why we don’t use it in larger pilot chutes. It seems in a situation where a pilot chute is not in clean air (massive wingsuit burbles/one piece track suits even) having a partially exposed large mesh would be better than small mesh. In my personal experience, small mesh is much more prone to snags in small brush, and wears out a little faster, but that’s 100% anecdotal and is probably more dependent on your jumping environment.

If I was having hard openings and thought I was using the right sized pilot chute, I’d first change packing, then the slider/slider gate, think about body position of whatever type of jumping I was doing. I don’t know that changing the type of mesh in my pilot chute would come to mind, but I’m glad that there are people thinking more outside the norm in base.

I guess I don’t like it because I see a possible downside and multiple other ways to accomplish the same goal. The real answer is probably it doesn’t make any difference at all, but I’m bored and my wife is out of town, it’s windy, and posting on the Internet is more interesting than doing chores around the house.

AntoineLaporte

Sep 28, 2019, 7:24 AM
Post #9 of 10 (313 views)
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Re: [hjumper33] High Air Speed PC's - Small/Large Hole Mesh? [In reply to] Can't Post

I repeat it again: the size of the PC only changes how fast the lines are stretch.
Than the PC is almost not doing anything and the canopy opens.
PC size has almost no relation with HOW the canopy opens, but only WHEN.
The only change is how the canopy is getting out of the container and this part can change how the canopy open by having the canopy turning around the bridle axis if this one is loose.

Atl least this is how I understand what I've seen on my back camera videos.

bluhdow

Sep 28, 2019, 8:14 AM
Post #10 of 10 (308 views)
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Re: [hjumper33] High Air Speed PC's - Small/Large Hole Mesh? [In reply to] Can't Post

hjumper33 wrote:
I see a possible downside and multiple other ways to accomplish the same goal.

Such is the case in BASE, and in life. =)

In my experience, nothing grabs burrs and sticks more than large mesh. Sticks have a way of working through one hole and out another creating a mess for me to carefully unwind. This is less prominent in small mesh.

It all works. I really think it's splitting hairs.


(This post was edited by bluhdow on Sep 28, 2019, 8:14 AM)


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