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No pull find. Please explain.
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base283

Apr 23, 2019, 6:57 AM
Post #1 of 52 (1951 views)
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No pull find. Please explain. Can't Post

Like the title says. I am ignorant in this.
Thanks,
take care,space :(

Heat

Apr 23, 2019, 7:20 AM
Post #2 of 52 (1941 views)
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Re: [base283] No pull find. Please explain. [In reply to] Can't Post

Here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pZDmtyar1A

wasatchrider

Apr 23, 2019, 8:14 AM
Post #3 of 52 (1930 views)
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Re: [base283] No pull find. Please explain. [In reply to] Can't Post

base283 wrote:
Like the title says. I am ignorant in this.
Thanks,
take care,space :(

It happens when people are learning to wing suit or a new wing suit when it takes them a few tries to pull.
It happens in base jumps when people don't know their suit able to pull in any position at any speed before they should be base jumping the suit and causes deaths


(This post was edited by wasatchrider on Apr 23, 2019, 8:15 AM)

wasatchrider

Apr 23, 2019, 8:18 AM
Post #4 of 52 (1923 views)
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Re: [wasatchrider] No pull find. Please explain. [In reply to] Can't Post

improper fitting rigs and suits are a big factor too

bluhdow

Apr 23, 2019, 9:23 AM
Post #5 of 52 (1910 views)
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Re: [wasatchrider] No pull find. Please explain. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think that's fair at all.

Without digging them all up, I believe there are multiple examples of "no pull find" fatalities on the BFL involving a range of experience levels in BASE, in wingsuiting, and in WS BASE.

I have a close friend who had hundreds of skydives on his suit, hundreds of BASE jumps on his gear, and at least a couple dozen WS BASE jumps on that exact gear combination nearly go in on a "no pull find." (Eventually found the PC while on his back. Canopy ride was around 5-6 seconds if memory serves.)

It's easy for us to point at incidents and pick them apart..."not enough experience"..."too big of a suit"..."wrong arm foam"...whatever. But seeing the footage of my friend who was more than qualified and jumping appropriate gear changed my view. His incident in addition to a clear upward trend in "no pull finds" suggests that it is worth a deeper understanding, I believe.

Personally I think the race for more performance has allowed suit designs with more "technical" pulls to become common as people accept certain trade-offs for gains in speed/flare/etc. I wonder how many BASE jumpers think about a suits "performance" when it comes to safety:

How easy is the pull?
How about in a sub-optimal body position?
How forgiving is the suit of mistakes?
How easy is it to regain control if lost?
Etc.

Then again, I understand the argument that "performance = safety" as speed and flare can contribute to larger margins when flying. So maybe this is all an exercise to find that optimal balance of "traditional safety" and "traditional performance."

TomAiello

Apr 23, 2019, 9:45 AM
Post #6 of 52 (1898 views)
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Re: [bluhdow] No pull find. Please explain. [In reply to] Can't Post

It can definitely happen to anyone.

I have friends who have 1000+ wingsuit BASE jumps (see the linked video, for example) and unforeseen situations still happen.

The lesson (again, see the video) is to always build in a margin so that a fumble at deployment doesn't become a fatal accident.

It's not just wing suits either. I've seen fumbles at pull time on tracking jumps and also slider down jumps.

Bad shit happens. It happens unexpectedly. And it can turn fatal in a hurry if we're not building in a margin for error.

Jumper behavior (planning pull height with a margin for repeated attempts, for example, in this case) is always going to be the key factor in our outcomes.


(This post was edited by TomAiello on Apr 23, 2019, 9:47 AM)

bluhdow

Apr 23, 2019, 11:07 AM
Post #7 of 52 (1874 views)
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Re: [TomAiello] No pull find. Please explain. [In reply to] Can't Post

100% agree. Ultimately we all have the ability to give ourselves a second, third, or fourth shot at that PC. That's step #1 in preventing "no pull finds."

I guess sitting next to Todd for the past couple years has shifted my thinking a bit. At first my thinking was always, "How can I behave to give myself more margin?" This still applies, of course.

Now, thanks to Todd's influence, I also think "How can the gear design give the jumper more margin as well?"

BASE is a big boy game and I don't think anyone in BASE wants to be protected from themselves, but we can all appreciate little design improvements that provide safety margin. I think some of that "easy pull no matter what" margin has shrunk on WS designs as the focus turns more and more towards "performance."

Again, it's a balancing act. I can see the other side of the argument where the more technical pull is worth the extra speed and flare. For me personally though, I've found that taking the biggest and fastest WS into BASE for "speed and flare" was a mistake. Now I gravitate more towards intermediate sized suits that are easier to fly, given my experience level and skill (or lack thereof).

AntoineLaporte

Apr 23, 2019, 11:37 AM
Post #8 of 52 (1858 views)
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Re: [base283] No pull find. Please explain. [In reply to] Can't Post

Factors:
- no enough training, no muscle memory
- no the good gear, longer container makes the gesture easier
- more and more suit rigidity (which is safer when flying close to the terrain). Pressure is part of the problem, but not being able to get the air ou of the wing because of the air-lock efficiency is the main problem
- more muscle fatigue than expected, not able to get to the PC
- frozen hands
- any combination of the above factors

For me the main factor is the BOC. This system is not adapted to wingsuiting, it is wingsuiting that is trying to stay compatible to BOC
And I think that we are getting closer and closer to an incompatibility.


P.S.: personal message, if you want to debate about it please open a new thread.
One system, the Wingtip Pouch, is an alternative, it is the best one we got for now.
Everybody who's finding weakness in this system can share it so we can make this system better and better, safer and safer.
Everybody who has an other idea is welcome to share it, I'm always looking for a new one without success.

TomAiello

Apr 23, 2019, 12:41 PM
Post #9 of 52 (1840 views)
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Re: [bluhdow] No pull find. Please explain. [In reply to] Can't Post

bluhdow wrote:
I guess sitting next to Todd for the past couple years has shifted my thinking a bit. At first my thinking was always, "How can I behave to give myself more margin?" This still applies, of course.

Now, thanks to Todd's influence, I also think "How can the gear design give the jumper more margin as well?"

The manufacturers (and other industry players, like instructors) can have a very large influence on jumper's attitudes and behaviors (which can ultimately shift the overall environment of the sport).

A manufacturer can prioritize safety over performance (or vice versa) in their product designs, or can prioritize judgement over youtube fame in their sponsorship decisions, for example. Different manufacturers obviously have very different approaches to these questions.

BASEMenace2

Apr 23, 2019, 2:09 PM
Post #10 of 52 (1820 views)
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Re: [bluhdow] No pull find. Please explain. [In reply to] Can't Post

Joe, your analysis of Robbies incident in Lauterbrunnen is flawed and innacurate. It was a 2 way, with me following him, btw.
Robbie struggled to find his handle because he jumped a container that he was not current on for that trip...and was super short...
The wingsuit he was jumping is quite possibly one of the easiest large suits ever made to pull.

This is a serious recurring problem. Manufacturers have and will continue to make changes to improve safety of gear for ease of use. But to blame wingsuit manufacturers entirely and not the persons lack of training or poor decison making is silly.

A consistent theme of the many no pull finds recently seems to be enviromental factors and un-currency on container system...as well as poor pull procedures.

MrAW

Apr 23, 2019, 2:15 PM
Post #11 of 52 (1818 views)
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Re: [wasatchrider] No pull find. Please explain. [In reply to] Can't Post

wasatchrider wrote:
It happens when people are learning to wing suit or a new wing suit when it takes them a few tries to pull.
It happens in base jumps when people don't know their suit able to pull in any position at any speed before they should be base jumping the suit and causes deaths

Yes but none of the above was a factor in the case of the recent fatality at Brento. Experienced and current jumper, familiar with the suit... would never have expected it to happen to him. Inexplicable and scary.
Like #321 and #350.

Ruling out some random occurrence like a shoulder dislocation in freefall or bird strike that incapacitated the arm, I do wonder if there is a suit/gear configuration that we're not conscious of that could contribute to this. There is a lot of talk about pressurisation but I remember a couple of years back there was one where it was mentioned that when the suit was less pressurised (like in a arched/student type position) it folded around the BOC and made it harder to access.

Personally (and I am not jumping big WS as yet) I will keep using the BOC but I do think the wingtip pouch makes a lot of sense.

bluhdow

Apr 23, 2019, 3:17 PM
Post #12 of 52 (1786 views)
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Re: [BASEMenace2] No pull find. Please explain. [In reply to] Can't Post

BASEMenace2 wrote:
Joe, your analysis of Robbies incident in Lauterbrunnen is flawed and innacurate. It was a 2 way, with me following him, btw.
Robbie struggled to find his handle because he jumped a container that he was not current on for that trip...and was super short...
The wingsuit he was jumping is quite possibly one of the easiest large suits ever made to pull.

This is a serious recurring problem. Manufacturers have and will continue to make changes to improve safety of gear for ease of use. But to blame wingsuit manufacturers entirely and not the persons lack of training or poor decison making is silly.

A consistent theme of the many no pull finds recently seems to be enviromental factors and un-currency on container system...as well as poor pull procedures.

Scotty,

First of all, you're great and I like you. So let's start off on a nice note. =)

Robbie and I have spent a lot of time talking about that incident. And watching the video. And trying to replicate it on the ground. I know you were flying with him, and spoke about it with him afterwards...but believe me when I tell you that Robbie and I have beaten this horse to death. A few notes:

1. Robbie had two setups on that trip, nearly identical. The first was a new TL with a new Aura 2. The second was his Summit, his primary rig for over 200 jumps, and an identical Aura 2. Robbie had been jumping his TL/A2 for the first two weeks of his trip, and this jump was his first jump on the Summit/A2 combo. It is true that he was more current on the TL/A2 combo than the Summit/A2 combo...but I don't think it's entirely accurate to characterize him as "not current" on any of that gear. Certainly not to the point where he wouldn't be able to find his PC.

2. Robbie had a decent amount of jumps on his Summit/A2 combo in the past, and hundreds of skydives on that A2. When asked if he felt the Summit is "super short," his answer was "no." The difference in length between the two containers is around 1 inch.

3. He agrees that the A2 has an easy pull.

4. I never blamed any WS manufacturer, or named any company, or suggested that jumpers are not responsible for their own decisions. I think it is objectively true that there are some direct conflicts between improving performance and increasing safety. Things like adding surface area, adding stiffness to the leading edge, adding internal pressure...all of these things can improve performance while making a suit more "technical" to fly. This is true regardless of make or model, and this trend is true across the entire industry. No one company is alone in this trend...and I think it's fair to say that the bar for what constitutes a "technical" suit has continued to be raised, if not by the manufacturers, by the jumping community.

5. Robbie believes the most significant causal factors were: his method of deployment, his decision to leave his legstraps "very very loose" for comfort in flight allowing the rig to move on his back, and the fact that he has a fused right wrist giving him minimal flexibility at that joint. Could the one inch in tray length have been a factor? Maybe. Could the floating zippers allowing the rig to move have been a factor? Also maybe. Robbie and I have discussed both at length. But both of those are further down the chain than things like his body position and fused wrist, in the opinion of the jumper who lived through it.

This isn't a brand war. All suits are getting more technical. I don't think I'm out of line when suggesting that the following should important considerations for every jumper:

How easy is the pull?
How about in a sub-optimal body position?
How forgiving is the suit of mistakes?
How easy is it to regain control if lost?
Etc.

Last, and certainly not least, you are a better BASE jumper, WS pilot, and WS BASE jumper than I could ever hope to be. I have tremendous respect for you as a jumper and as a human.

AntoineLaporte

Apr 24, 2019, 2:46 AM
Post #13 of 52 (1694 views)
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Re: [bluhdow] No pull find. Please explain. [In reply to] Can't Post

If I may, using words like "technical pull" instead of "harder pull" is already minimizing the problem

Lok

Apr 24, 2019, 5:04 AM
Post #14 of 52 (1671 views)
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Re: [TomAiello] No pull find. Please explain. [In reply to] Can't Post

I totally agree with Tom input.

Is always nice to have some more altitude to cope with this situation.

I believe the safest way is:

1) Skydive your new wingsuit in order to get familiar with pull procedure.
2) Skydive your wingsuit from a Balloon or Paratrike using your base rig in order to get familiar with pull and pilotchute location on your base rig (maybe is in different location than your skydive rig)
3) Always start pull procedure in a wingsuit base jump higher than normal, in order to have time to correct a miss pull...

I haven’t wingsuit base yet, but I have done 7 wingsuit jumps from a paratrike using my base rig and I had a close call(my last paratrike wingsuit jump)…. check below video…:

https://www.youtube.com/...amp;feature=youtu.be

I was using an old S-Fly wingsuit that I had skydive before many times. At the last moment decide to change the configuration setting of wingsuit tip handle (no gripper) in order to increase pressure on the suit…. I did 1 jump from airplane and even I had increase the performance of the wingsuit I had difficulty to find the pilotchute..then I thought that I was tired and the jump from Paratrike would be uneventful….I was wrong………………..then again The only I can say from my little experience is never try new things on low altitude…………..always try everything new in skydiving environment..

Meat.Missile

May 3, 2019, 1:04 PM
Post #15 of 52 (1263 views)
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Re: [AntoineLaporte] No pull find. Please explain. [In reply to] Can't Post

AntoineLaporte wrote:
If I may, using words like "technical pull" instead of "harder pull" is already minimizing the problem

The difference is a technical's pull is how the pc is grabbed and a hard pull is how the pc is removed from the BOC.

dmcoco84

May 4, 2019, 2:20 PM
Post #16 of 52 (1152 views)
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Re: [base283] No pull find. Please explain. [In reply to] Can't Post

base283 wrote:
Like the title says. I am ignorant in this.
Thanks, take care, space :(

Spacey Tracey doesn't understand... because it's impossible.

Pilot Chutes No Pull Find, HIM.

That is all :)

base283

May 5, 2019, 12:30 AM
Post #17 of 52 (1101 views)
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Re: [dmcoco84] No pull find. Please explain. [In reply to] Can't Post

The part I don´t understand is the process of decision making that allows one to jump a set up that one isn´t sure works, that if it doesn´t work, is fatal.
Where do you get the word "Impossible" from? It is disappointing that you read what you want into what I wrote rather what I wrote, but whatever.
Back to the topic.
I know that most people are not stupid. And none would purposely put themselves in this position. There is a glitch some where in the decision making process.
What is this glitch? How do we spot it? What do we do to remedy it? Is the problem is that the set up is untestable? Or testing isn´t viable? Is it a logic process mistake like "Task Substitution"? What do you think?
Take care,
space

TomAiello

May 5, 2019, 8:59 AM
Post #18 of 52 (1037 views)
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Re: [dmcoco84] No pull find. Please explain. [In reply to] Can't Post

This forum is for technical discussions. Please respect that. Thanks!

TomAiello

May 5, 2019, 9:00 AM
Post #19 of 52 (1034 views)
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Re: [base283] No pull find. Please explain. [In reply to] Can't Post

The problem is that we all think we're infallible, and that this kind of thing can't possibly happen to us. Overconfidence is a killer, but in the real world pretty much all BASE jumpers are overconfident--it's almost a prerequisite for participation in the sport.

Colm

May 5, 2019, 10:34 AM
Post #20 of 52 (1021 views)
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Re: [base283] No pull find. Please explain. [In reply to] Can't Post

base283 wrote:
What is this glitch? How do we spot it? What do we do to remedy it? Is the problem is that the set up is untestable? Or testing isn´t viable? Is it a logic process mistake like "Task Substitution"? What do you think?
Take care,
space

These are such great questions. Could ask the same thing about many aspects of regular BASE.

Can you say more about "Task Substitution?"
Thanks,
Colm

base283

May 5, 2019, 4:42 PM
Post #21 of 52 (969 views)
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Re: [Colm] No pull find. Please explain. [In reply to] Can't Post

"Task substitution" is where one substitutes a task in the sequence in lieu of adding it. It will fill the goal psychologically the same. Like "I am good to go" even though the task substituted is something mandatory for survival. Would you like examples?

seldomseen_mark

May 5, 2019, 7:53 PM
Post #22 of 52 (947 views)
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Re: [base283] No pull find. Please explain. [In reply to] Can't Post

I suspect what you mean is someone saying that phrase, yet they didn't perform a gear/pin check prior to flight. They said the words, yet the actions prior to that were not completed?

There really should be an interest in the aviation world with BASE when it comes to a proper pre-flight check (rigging up) and sterile cockpit during the final phases of departure. (stepping off). During those phases, mental, physical, emotional and technical assessment should be performed. If the risk > benefit the jump should be aborted.

We have an FRMS: (Fatigue Risk Mitigation Score). After each mission, each crew submits a number. Over 5 the crew has to time out. Pilots are a different issue, subject to the FAA regulations. But collectively if the RN, Medic, and pilot have a score greater than 8 combined, the mission is aborted/declined.

base283

May 5, 2019, 9:52 PM
Post #23 of 52 (938 views)
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Re: [seldomseen_mark] No pull find. Please explain. [In reply to] Can't Post

No. I was speaking levels above this.
There is a sequence of events that one accepts as true. But when one changes the sequence (that has worked xn amount of times) the flow goes it´s own way. Regardless of the old sequence. The sequence has no interest if you are correct and will say NOTHING to you but that you have completed gearing up. This means substituting/adding anything to the tasks sequence, will not effect the end of the sequence go or nogo decision. Although, It has the possibilities to help one die due to unthought out decisions. Be aware of not asking " What's next?". That is the NUMBER 1 killer. Not asking this question to one's self.
Second killer is overestimate of one's skillz. 3rd is following the wrong person and 4th is Scrap happens. But killer NUMBER ! covers 1 through 3. Scrap happens is very rare.

AntoineLaporte

May 6, 2019, 3:57 AM
Post #24 of 52 (893 views)
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Re: [Meat.Missile] No pull find. Please explain. [In reply to] Can't Post

Meat.Missile wrote:
AntoineLaporte wrote:
If I may, using words like "technical pull" instead of "harder pull" is already minimizing the problem

The difference is a technical's pull is how the pc is grabbed and a hard pull is how the pc is removed from the BOC.

So how can we talk about a pull that is hard to perform even if you got the technical skill for it, when the problem is the strenght to reach th PC ?

TomAiello

May 6, 2019, 6:26 AM
Post #25 of 52 (872 views)
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Re: [seldomseen_mark] No pull find. Please explain. [In reply to] Can't Post

That makes a ton of sense.

It would be great if we could conduct ourselves in the same way BASE jumping, but I rather suspect that BASE jumpers are too overconfident to figure that out.

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