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Question on Toggle setting Atair Vision
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e.a.hernandez

Jan 4, 2019, 8:26 AM
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Question on Toggle setting Atair Vision Can't Post

Atair canopies come in with toggle loop finger trapped and sewed from the factory. When jumped slider up it has very tiny minor tail deflection. When jumped slider down and break lines taken outside the riser ring (“typical” slider down setup) I feel like I don’t have enough flare. Get the impression that I need to shorten the toggles a bit more and I am missing on full flare capabilty. What’s your experience with Atair canopies in this regard? Any tips to shorten the toggle settings on a sewed in toggle setting? Again, I have ways I do it but wanted to hear some feedback on how you do it. Canopy is a Vision 225 (PIA 245) loaded at .67-.70. From what I have read the Vision should have a monster flare.

TomAiello

Jan 4, 2019, 1:26 PM
Post #2 of 16 (854 views)
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Re: [e.a.hernandez] Question on Toggle setting Atair Vision [In reply to] Can't Post

The Vision has a pretty short control stroke. I'd definitely try it out on the factory setting a fair bit before you shorten it too much.

It's an aggressive canopy and over-amping the toggle stroke can put you in a dangerous situation. I really like the canopy, but I wouldn't recommend it for someone who is either low in canopy experience or prone to panic (that's not directed at you--just my general advice for the canopy--I think you're going to be well able to handle it).

You can always experimentally shorten the stroke by just tying a backstop knot a little ways up from the factory loop.

DFR

Jan 4, 2019, 2:54 PM
Post #3 of 16 (833 views)
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Re: [e.a.hernandez] Question on Toggle setting Atair Vision [In reply to] Can't Post

Never flown a vision but on my OSP I added a toggle setting (same as brake setting but a bit larger loop to fit the toggle back through) 6” up from the sewn loop at the end of the line. I can reach my hands about 6” above the keeper ring when the toggles are free so I was still able to achieve full flight and then had more control for aggressive evasive maneuvers along with a stronger flare. Definetly tie your toggle higher to test it before you sew.

I posted about it a long time ago, andagain more recently when someone asked how to use it for a line release toggle. Also I think Apex has it on most or all their canopies. Here’s a link to my last post and I’ll attract a picture to here too.

http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2992694#2992694
Attachments: C613B114-9849-4776-9789-062350C67974.jpeg (2.53 MB)

e.a.hernandez

Jan 4, 2019, 3:29 PM
Post #4 of 16 (823 views)
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Re: [DFR] Question on Toggle setting Atair Vision [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes. My other Apex canopy has same two toggle settings which I am considering putting on my Vision.

Think I just need to play a bit more with it. Most of my experience is on OSPs and Outlaws that were loaded lighter than my Vision 225.

I am used to flying very boring patterns mostly on partial to half breaks and then flaring on the end.

Not sure if this has anything to do with it and the Vision needs to be let to fly a bit more due to it being a more glide-ish platform along with a higher wing loading.

TomAiello

Jan 4, 2019, 3:42 PM
Post #5 of 16 (819 views)
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Re: [e.a.hernandez] Question on Toggle setting Atair Vision [In reply to] Can't Post

More speed will always yield more flare, but my experience has been that the highest glide and fastest canopies generally give a lot of extra flare in full flight. The Outlaw (most extreme example) almost has the same flare from full flight and 3/4 brakes, where the Lobo (extreme other end of the spectrum) has monster flare from full flight but much less from deep brakes.

So, yes, I'd say let the Vision have full flight into the landing and see how that treats you, as part of the process of finding your ideal toggle setting.

bluhdow

Jan 5, 2019, 8:09 AM
Post #6 of 16 (726 views)
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Re: [e.a.hernandez] Question on Toggle setting Atair Vision [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's a link describing the aforementioned dual toggle settings on Apex BASE canopies.

https://apexbase.com/two-toggle-settings/

I suspect that this concept could be applied to any canopy. We obviously think it makes sense primarily for the SU to SD conversion, but there are other benefits (e.g. some people just prefer one or the other setting on all jumps due to body type/flying style/etc.).

It just gives you options when configuring gear, which seems helpful for most people.

base283

Jan 5, 2019, 7:00 PM
Post #7 of 16 (643 views)
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Re: [e.a.hernandez] Question on Toggle setting Atair Vision [In reply to] Can't Post

It is the geometry. Line to tail, or line to riser to tail. I jump my older canopies with a take up on the toggles. I get an extra wrap on the toggle it self with the line, this sucks up 10cm which is sufficient for me. I hate double wrapping the steering lines on my hands.
Take care.
space

edited to add link. I posted some photos at the end of the thread that shows the way I do it.
http://www.basejumper.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2995356;search_string=base283;#2995356


(This post was edited by base283 on Jan 6, 2019, 11:30 AM)

TomAiello

Jan 7, 2019, 6:34 AM
Post #8 of 16 (508 views)
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Re: [base283] Question on Toggle setting Atair Vision [In reply to] Can't Post

It also depends on the particular flare technique of the jumper. People who flare hands-together-and-in-front have a much smaller differential than people who flare hands-spread-to-the-sides.

base283

Jan 7, 2019, 8:32 AM
Post #9 of 16 (489 views)
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Re: [TomAiello] Question on Toggle setting Atair Vision [In reply to] Can't Post

TomAiello wrote:
It also depends on the particular flare technique of the jumper. People who flare hands-together-and-in-front have a much smaller differential than people who flare hands-spread-to-the-sides.
If people do not know how to flare efficiently, none of the rigging tips will help them. As Tom points out, Hands to the sides flare has a smaller differential. using this method, it is easy to lose maybe upto 50% efficiency of the flare. Ok, I made that 50% value up. But it can definitely cause non stand up landings with the older and newer canopies. Non stand up as in faceplant. In a no wind landing with insufficient flare, the canopy falls forward generally.
We could start a thread on flare tech if anyone wants to discuss this subject more.
Take care,
space

Colm

Jan 7, 2019, 11:39 AM
Post #10 of 16 (449 views)
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Re: [base283] Question on Toggle setting Atair Vision [In reply to] Can't Post

TomAiello wrote:
People who flare hands-together-and-in-front have a much smaller differential than people who flare hands-spread-to-the-sides.
base283 wrote:
As Tom points out, Hands to the sides flare has a smaller differential.

Am I reading it wrong, or did you just say the exact opposite?

AntoineLaporte

Jan 7, 2019, 12:06 PM
Post #11 of 16 (441 views)
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Re: [e.a.hernandez] Question on Toggle setting Atair Vision [In reply to] Can't Post

What I've done on my own rigs is to put the ring the highest I could on the risers, so when you are arms up you have less tail deflection.
I'm even thinking of having the same kind of extention attached to the links as it is used in swooping to get even more range.

LeeroyJenkins

Jan 7, 2019, 12:53 PM
Post #12 of 16 (429 views)
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Re: [Colm] Question on Toggle setting Atair Vision [In reply to] Can't Post

Colm wrote:
TomAiello wrote:
People who flare hands-together-and-in-front have a much smaller differential than people who flare hands-spread-to-the-sides.
base283 wrote:
As Tom points out, Hands to the sides flare has a smaller differential.

Am I reading it wrong, or did you just say the exact opposite?

Need clarity.

TomAiello

Jan 7, 2019, 2:02 PM
Post #13 of 16 (410 views)
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Re: [AntoineLaporte] Question on Toggle setting Atair Vision [In reply to] Can't Post

AntoineLaporte wrote:
What I've done on my own rigs is to put the ring the highest I could on the risers, so when you are arms up you have less tail deflection.

Someone with less sewing skills can achieve most of that by just buying longer risers, too.

In reply to:
I'm even thinking of having the same kind of extention attached to the links as it is used in swooping to get even more range.

I have a couple friends running "triple risers" like that with good results. I think you know at least one of them, too. :)

AntoineLaporte

Jan 7, 2019, 2:12 PM
Post #14 of 16 (407 views)
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Re: [TomAiello] Question on Toggle setting Atair Vision [In reply to] Can't Post

TomAiello wrote:
AntoineLaporte wrote:
What I've done on my own rigs is to put the ring the highest I could on the risers, so when you are arms up you have less tail deflection.

Someone with less sewing skills can achieve most of that by just buying longer risers, too.

In reply to:
I'm even thinking of having the same kind of extention attached to the links as it is used in swooping to get even more range.

I have a couple friends running "triple risers" like that with good results. I think you know at least one of them, too. :)

First time I moved the rings I've done it with a sewing machine bought in a supermarket.
Longer risers can do the deal too, but a lot of BASE harness are now without 3 rings or LBar. Moving the ring or adding an other one is sometimes the only solution.
I never saw "triple risers" on BASE harness, I'd like to see that kind of modifications.

base283

Jan 7, 2019, 5:20 PM
Post #15 of 16 (381 views)
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Re: [Colm] Question on Toggle setting Atair Vision [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, follow Tom´s as he is more clear. I was using differentials.

Colm

Jan 7, 2019, 11:02 PM
Post #16 of 16 (347 views)
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Re: [base283] Question on Toggle setting Atair Vision [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm with you now, thanks for clarifying


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