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We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks
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SLAMBO

Feb 8, 2018, 7:29 AM
Post #26 of 65 (6578 views)
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Re: [dmcoco84] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Boom! Mitch is like the grand ninja wizard dude. He has done way more than pretty much any base jumper has, to get progress with the NPS.

dmcoco84

Feb 8, 2018, 8:22 AM
Post #27 of 65 (6562 views)
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Re: [Mitchpee] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Mitchpee wrote:
Yes lots of knowledge base of many meetings with superintendents. Happy to share as always with those who care.

That’s okay you don’t think but my personal experience discussing the topic at hand with NPS figures contradicts your feeling of doubt. So think what you will.

Interesting... we'll most definitely need to chat then.

Oh, no, by all means... my doubts would be greatly reduced if those presented statements were coming from meetings with and straight from the ass's mouth(s).

I would however ask you: What good would structure or a solid communal effort be (like what we already see in places like moab), if as a matter of fact, they do not believe that it is an appropriate activity? Even if we had no fatalities what so ever, that is quite a hurdle.

Have you spoken to the new Superintendent yet/before?
http://www.fresnobee.com/...rticle196403664.html

I'll give him "an exemption" until further notice.
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dmcoco84

Feb 8, 2018, 8:22 AM
Post #28 of 65 (6561 views)
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Re: [SLAMBO] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

SLAMBO wrote:
Boom!

Boom!

TomAiello

Feb 8, 2018, 8:28 AM
Post #29 of 65 (6555 views)
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Re: [dmcoco84] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

dmcoco84 wrote:
Have you spoken to the new Superintendent yet/before?

Yosemite is not the place to start.

Initial access will be much easier in lower traffic parks, preferably ones that already have general BASE activity in nearby areas, and hopefully in which those other areas are other federal government units.

The furthest I've seen the process get is in the New River (where discussions with the superintendent were focused on creating smaller "Bridge Day-like" events multiple times per year, expanding the number of permits granted each year from one to four), and parks in Utah (where Moab already acts as something of an example of how jumpers can get along with administration and other users on public lands). In both cases, there was already some sort of model to follow and build on.

dmcoco84

Feb 8, 2018, 8:55 AM
Post #30 of 65 (6542 views)
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Re: [TomAiello] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

TomAiello wrote:
dmcoco84 wrote:
Have you spoken to the new Superintendent yet/before?

Yosemite is not the place to start.

Can't talk to people...?

Knowing his opinion would be helpful, would it not... especially if you're talking to all these other people.

In reply to:
Initial access will be much easier in lower traffic parks, preferably ones that already have general BASE activity in nearby areas, and hopefully in which those other areas are other federal government units.

That was going to be my next question for Mitch.

I'm not too (directly) familiar with Zion, for example. How would that compare to Yosemite on all relevant matters: trees, people, foot traffic in LZ's or outs, other hazards, difficulty in rescues, and so on.

In reply to:
The furthest I've seen the process get is in the New River (where discussions with the superintendent were focused on creating smaller "Bridge Day-like" events multiple times per year, expanding the number of permits granted each year from one to four).

Yeeeeah.

And speaking of which, where are we with that?
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dmcoco84

Feb 8, 2018, 10:10 AM
Post #31 of 65 (6521 views)
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Re: [Mitchpee] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

TomAiello wrote:
jski123 wrote:
Until the day I get busted I'm going to say that I really don't mind it. I might even go as far to say I kind of like that it's illegal. I enjoy the solitude of being on top without anybody else there.

This is a fair point, and one that is often overlooked.

I think that legalizing BASE in national parks in the USA would result in an almost instant circus, and a subsequent total ban.

If we want legal access to national parks, we first need to come up with a way to avoid that happening. Yosemite couldn't sustain LB's incident rate for three months, let alone permanently.

In reply to:
To be honest I don’t think it’s a fair point at all. It’s actually more hypocritical. Let’s say you do everything “right” jumping in parks have a tension knot and land in a tree. Then are you really going to say with a $3,000 bill and equipment replacement fees added onto your hospitals that you were happy it’s illegal? If you can then congrats you’re not a hypocrite. But I doubt that’s the case.

Totally Agree. And as long as it's illegal, I'll never be able to jump with my dad in any parks.

In reply to:
Maybe there’s a way to prevent the circus atmosphere. I mean it’s 2017 we are launching private enterprises into space maybe we could all come up with some ideas and productive conversation to integrate recreational activities in national parks instead of crossing our arms across and saying nope it just ain’t gonna happen.

Actually, I think I have idea about that...

Have been googling, but can't find an answer: but if yes, AND if I am wrong about "appropriate activity", it would certainly be possible.

And why is cannabis on this list? WTF? %SpecialPlaces %#
https://www.nps.gov/...yourvisit/safety.htm
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Mitchpee

Feb 9, 2018, 12:27 AM
Post #32 of 65 (6397 views)
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Re: [dmcoco84] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Tom I’ve never heard any talk of commercial guiding or monetary gain by organizing anything. ie hang gliding off Glacier, rock climbing, canyoneering etc. which are all mostly unregulated activities. yes there will likely be permits required to keep numbers per day at an acceptable user rate like there is with half dome cables or the Narrows in Zion, but I’ve never once considered commercial guiding outfits and BASE jumping to be considered on the same table nor heard any superintendent propose that.

Yosemite is definitely a bad place to set a precedent but hey if someone can start a dialogue would never hurt.

There’s already a process in place at all national parks via department of the interior and localized park planning process for assessment of overall impact of an activity in a national park.

That’s the most frustrating thing is that there’s a plethora of experience out there we can build on but as individuals we cannot come up with anything. Robin Heid gave me a lot of info about what you guys did with the ABP and helped show what works and doesn’t. I’m not a smart man, Jenny but I know what love is. Just kidding but really I’m a pretty average human being and just by taking from the foundation others used before, a lot of time spent writing different proposals, and some creative cold calling it was easy for me to at least get a serious discussion with some tangible things to present to the NpS.

dmcoco84

Feb 9, 2018, 1:42 AM
Post #33 of 65 (6385 views)
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Re: [Mitchpee] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
yes there will likely be permits required to keep numbers per day at an acceptable user rate like there is with half dome cables or the Narrows in Zion

Any idea on a range? That could get very frustrating...

In reply to:
but I’ve never once considered commercial guiding outfits and BASE jumping to be considered on the same table nor heard any superintendent propose that.

Good! I'd object.

In reply to:
Yosemite is definitely a bad place to set a precedent but hey if someone can start a dialogue would never hurt.

If given approval; where would you desire to start?

In reply to:
That’s the most frustrating thing is that there’s a plethora of experience out there we can build on but as individuals we cannot come up with anything. Robin Heid gave me a lot of info about what you guys did with the ABP and helped show what works and doesn’t. I’m not a smart man, Jenny but I know what love is. Just kidding but really I’m a pretty average human being and just by taking from the foundation others used before, a lot of time spent writing different proposals, and some creative cold calling it was easy for me to at least get a serious discussion with some tangible things to present to the NpS.

So do you think the opinions of superintendents are changing? Because I go back to "appropriate activity" issues. Is it no longer, "we despise this", and simply, "fine, how do we make it work?"

One topic discussed over a decade ago was a need for infiltration (new blood), or that issue would never change.
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TomAiello

Feb 9, 2018, 7:05 AM
Post #34 of 65 (6357 views)
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Re: [Mitchpee] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Mitchpee wrote:
Tom I’ve never heard any talk of commercial guiding or monetary gain by organizing anything.

That was from a long set of discussions I had with Don Striker when he was superintendent of the New River. He told me he couldn't sell unregulated access to his bosses in DC. They already had a system in place for whitewater rafting companies, and he wanted to model a system for BASE access on that.

This was separate from setting up "mini bridge day" events, which would have been modeled on the main Bridge Day event, but run for longer (we were talking about 3 days) and run primarily from the catwalk (so the bridge didn't have to be shut down--that was a request from the state highway people).

Anyway, that's all ancient history at this point. I wasn't willing to throw in the (six figure) amount of money necessary to make everything go, because there was no guarantee that there wouldn't be a change in any of the necessary permissions (we needed permission from the county, state, local guiding associations, and the NPS). All it would have taken was a change in one key person (many of whom were political appointees) and the whole system would have fallen apart.

TomAiello

Feb 9, 2018, 7:12 AM
Post #35 of 65 (6353 views)
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Re: [Mitchpee] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Mitchpee wrote:
That’s the most frustrating thing is that there’s a plethora of experience out there we can build on but as individuals we cannot come up with anything.

That's really because of history. Our internal history. It's all well and good to say "let's all get to work" but when you've already spent years working on something, and then had it all fall apart because of politics between different jumpers, you're unlikely to want to throw more time and energy into it.

The most precious commodity we have in this issue is the personal time and energy of the individuals who are willing to work on it. You only have so much you can give, and eventually you run out of energy.

That's also why I wouldn't bother working on Yosemite access. With a limited amount of time and energy to work on it, you should focus on the places with the highest possibility of success, and the places that will act as gateways to bring access to other places.

TomAiello

Feb 9, 2018, 7:19 AM
Post #36 of 65 (6348 views)
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Re: [dmcoco84] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

dmcoco84 wrote:
Is it no longer, "we despise this", and simply, "fine, how do we make it work?"

I don't think I've ever spoken to an NPS official who said "we despise this" or even gave me that impression. Heck, even Dan Horner (who had a terrible reputation with jumpers, given that he was the lead law enforcement guy busting us in Yosemite at that point) was pretty reasonable about the whole thing when I talked to him.

We were at "fine, how do we make it work" back in 2008 at the New River. We were actually well past that, to "ok, this is how we make it work."

We just weren't willing to pull the trigger because of the financial risks involved, and the fact that one change in one political appointee (out of half a dozen who needed to give us their blessing) would have killed the whole thing (and left us with a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of valueless land).

Making lots of posts on the internet about how people need to "get busy" is all well and good if you want to feel like you're "doing something". But there are people who have actually done all the legwork in the past, realistically evaluated costs and benefits, and chosen not to move forward.

Mitch is currently doing a lot of leg work. I hope he can make that all work out. But having already been down that road, I'm not really interested in spending a bunch of my time (of which I have _a lot_ less than I did ten or fifteen years ago) chasing this issue. Not after having been involved with four other efforts, three of which were basically sabotaged by jumpers out of personal jealousy, and one of which I chose to discontinue after considering the real costs and benefits to my family.


(This post was edited by TomAiello on Feb 9, 2018, 7:30 AM)

RoadBuzzard

Feb 9, 2018, 12:29 PM
Post #37 of 65 (6291 views)
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Re: [TomAiello] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Good info, perspectives, and discussion.

jakebaustin

Feb 10, 2018, 9:35 PM
Post #38 of 65 (6139 views)
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Re: [RoadBuzzard] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Trump & zinke are businessmen.. I think now is a better time than any. Probably not through some group like cliff jumpers association or norcal paraalpinism but rather with lawyers & lobbyist. All we need is like a few hundred thousand.

cloudtramp

Feb 11, 2018, 6:50 PM
Post #39 of 65 (6018 views)
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Re: [TomAiello] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
“Even someone as well liked as Mario got a lot of static from other jumpers when he tried to put together a license to operate in areas that _already had general access_”

I have no recollection of any static from other jumpers due to his working with the BLM to officially recognize BASE jumping on public lands as a legitimately licensed and insured commercial activity. The only drama I recall is from Tree and Abbie of “Tandem BASE” claiming he was stealing their “idea” of tandem BASE jumping as a business model. Fast forward a few years and BLM management maps of Moab now have officially designated and maintained BASE Jumping areas (Tombstone and Mineral Bottom). I feel like that’s a huge achievement in the path to more access which was a result of Mario’s footwork at the local and the federal level.

TomAiello

Feb 11, 2018, 7:20 PM
Post #40 of 65 (6009 views)
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Re: [cloudtramp] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps we're thinking of the same thing. I remember them saying quite a lot of things, and on at least one occasion one of those things was that he was "selling out" by working with land managers on a permit system.

Regardless, it's an area to tread in carefully.

Highradwarrior

Feb 13, 2018, 6:38 PM
Post #41 of 65 (5802 views)
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Re: [TomAiello] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Some really good post in this thread!

If there’s one thing I’m confident in, it’s that the govt likes organizational structure. Something like the SBK or SBA would go a long way in showing some internal discipline amongst the jumping community.... which is something that would hopefully provide a positive perception of said community’s ability to “play” nice. I’d imagine finding ways to make the whole thing profitable for big brother would be even more beneficial. I think, to Tom’s point, in order to compensate people for their time & efforts, the whole movement would have to end up being modeled something like the USPA. I don’t have a dog in this fight, as I’m not a B.A.S.E. jumper... but I wouldn’t be opposed to that kind of governance when I’m ready.

In this age of social media, it’s never been easier to reach out and open a dialogue with the right people. I’m very interested in seeing others opinions on this topic.

Colm

Feb 17, 2018, 2:06 AM
Post #42 of 65 (5629 views)
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Re: [Highradwarrior] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Highradwarrior wrote:
Something like the SBK or SBA would go a long way

We could even call ourselves SBO, for "States BASE Organization"
Tongue

dmcoco84

Feb 18, 2018, 2:24 PM
Post #43 of 65 (5540 views)
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Re: [TomAiello] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
They already had a system in place for whitewater rafting companies, and he wanted to model a system for BASE access on that.

Which is Absurd.

In reply to:
That was from a long set of discussions I had with Don Striker when he was superintendent of the New River. He told me he couldn't sell unregulated access to his bosses in DC.

So Tom, there is quite a bit to break down and speak to between your three posts; starting here. I think it is fair to say that the majority of your statements (throughout the thread) are in relation to New River; a complicated topic, and a task which I wouldn't want to undertake publicly without looking back at emails and PMs with the various people who provided me info over the years. Where Mitch and I are both busy and can't even do that currently, between ourselves.

However, you did lead right into my next point:

As Mitch stated above: "My position has always been slow, thorough and responsibly introduced park impact procedures." -- I think that is very reasonable, if, you are dealing with reasonable people. So, lets say that he/we are successful in getting a permit (meaning: some degree of consistent/regular access, but not "uncontrolled") to a low key place like those we have spoken about in recent PMs. Then another, and maybe even a third...

What's to stop an NPS Director from stepping in and shutting it all down; "as we prove ourselves"? -- Nothing!

But, but, why oh why, would they do such a thing...? Because "it's not an appropriate activity."

I am encouraged to hear from Mitch that there is new blood and opinions are changing, but it's not happening fast enough, and outside of additional info, it's also not happening with the parties I would deem necessary.


Mitch already spoke somewhat to the points I wanted to make, here.

Along with this, lets look at the ass's full statements:

In reply to:
http://www.modbee.com/...rticle166303332.html
Yosemite park spokesman Scott Gediman said BASE jumping is illegal because it doesn’t fit in with “the park’s values” that puts a high priority of providing a wholesome, quiet, safe environment for families and visitors. He said typically two to three BASE jumpers are prosecuted each year for illegally pursuing their sport in the park.

“Some of these jumpers have landed in trees and in rivers,” Gediman said. “They also draw large crowds and a circus-like atmosphere.”

We just don’t believe it’s appropriate for the park,” Gediman said, noting that sometimes it takes park staff to rescue jumpers.

"The Park's Values" -- That's Cute.

Well, Chip is gone (he got spider kicked back home to Mt Rainier), and maybe you haven't chatted with Gediman, Tom... because it sure sounds to me like he, and He Who Authorizes, what he says, despises BASE jumping. Where I hate to break it to everyone, but he's not just "a spokesman"; "Scott Gediman is the assistant superintendent for public & legislative affairs at Yosemite National Park. He manages all of the park’s media relations, legislative affairs, special events and dignitary visits. He has been in this position since 1996 and is a 23-year veteran of the National Park Service (NPS)." [~30 Years - Since 1988] -- He's old fart blood, who also saw Jan Davis go in.

In reply to:
What does your role at Yosemite entail? And how do you juggle being a park ranger and a public affairs person?

As a National Park Ranger, I’m involved in day-to-day park operations and serve on the park’s management team.

I also serve as the park spokesman and handle media relations, work with political delegations, plan special events and meet with international delegations. In my role with the media, I must accurately represent the park and the NPS.

But to compliment your statements, Tom... just like Bill Wendt (Chief Ranger) said in Sunshine Superman, (without quoting his full statement, ending with): "You don't have to dislike someone to, take away their freedom."

We do however have an interesting situation currently. Because the Deputy Director, and acting Director until recently, is now the Yosemite Superintendent; who grew up in the park according to the article I posted above.

So ... What does Mr. Reynolds think?

Because if you can't convince him, you're not going to convince anyone (of means), and I don't have time to wait another 20 years; or wait for "slow, thorough and responsible progression" with individuals who I don't believe have any desire to see our dreams come to fruition.

Happy to be wrong... and we've got plenty of time.

In reply to:
The most precious commodity we have in this issue is the personal time and energy of the individuals who are willing to work on it. You only have so much you can give, and eventually you run out of energy.

That is exactly, why we should be working on Yosemite; at least in tandem.
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AntoineLaporte

Feb 18, 2018, 3:53 PM
Post #44 of 65 (5525 views)
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Re: [dmcoco84] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
“Some of these jumpers have landed in trees and in rivers,” Gediman said. “They also draw large crowds and a circus-like atmosphere.”

I'm not american, but this statment is reality. This is how most basejumpers are (me included sometimes) and I do not think it's about to change.
I hope for you guys that you will one day get access again to this park, but I'm sure it will not be in the next years.

The good thing in Europe is that the circus guys are staying always in the same places and the good places are still quiet most of the time. That is what you are missing, some place for the "yeaaaaaah/Wooooooooo/FuckYeaaaaah/Woooooo" guys so they would not come to the places where you need to respect other's tranquility.

I wish you the best in your quest !

RockyShark6

Feb 22, 2018, 7:22 AM
Post #45 of 65 (5346 views)
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Re: [AntoineLaporte] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

I haven't even been on the other side of the puddle so obviously Idk what rules you have and what not but wouldn't places like Kjerags base association SBK be a good tool and role model?

You can point to them for support and statistics.
I think some sort of a base club is the only way to get it legal and everyone who jumps without a permit from the club are doing it illegal.
I mean it would be much more beneficial for them to atleast get some control over it instead of as right now when they can't control it at all, people are still going to jump.

dmcoco84

Feb 22, 2018, 11:22 PM
Post #46 of 65 (5289 views)
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We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Happy Birthday, G-Dub!

Cool








!


dmcoco84

Feb 23, 2018, 1:33 PM
Post #47 of 65 (5239 views)
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Re: [Highradwarrior] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If there’s one thing I’m confident in, it’s that the govt likes organizational structure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-ZdY9BLbgQ

In reply to:
...the whole movement would have to end up being modeled something like the USPA.

No, Thank You.

TomAiello

Feb 24, 2018, 10:09 AM
Post #48 of 65 (5154 views)
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Re: [RockyShark6] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

RockyShark6 wrote:
I haven't even been on the other side of the puddle so obviously Idk what rules you have and what not but wouldn't places like Kjerags base association SBK be a good tool and role model?

The SBK works because they can exercise effective control over 95% of the jumps done there, because they have the only full time shuttle service running jumpers up the hill (and the boat back to Lysebotn). They can enforce their rules because they have an enforcement mechanism--if you don't like their rules you have to arrange your own transport, which is both difficult and costly.

Local enforcement around Arco is greatly helped by local interface with the shuttle drivers, too. But that's been a bit of a rocky road, and takes work from both sides.

Yosemite would be a lot more like LB, because the transport services are generally available (well, more like not available) to everyone, and can't be controlled by a self-regulation effort.

It's analogous to how the USPA exercises control--they control the aircraft (aside from a few notable exceptions, like Dausneyland) and therefore they can impose rules which jumpers must follow to use the aircraft. Without a mechanism of control over jumpers getting to the exit point, you can't create a real SBK style effort--there will always be rebels who don't want to follow the rules (for good or bad--I'd argue that it's both, actually, rebellion is close to the heart of BASE, and likely will be for the foreseeable future).

dmcoco84

Feb 24, 2018, 3:07 PM
Post #49 of 65 (5123 views)
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Re: [TomAiello] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

TomAiello wrote:
The SBK works because they can exercise effective control over 95% of the jumps done there, because they have the only full time shuttle service running jumpers up the hill (and the boat back to Lysebotn). They can enforce their rules because they have an enforcement mechanism--if you don't like their rules you have to arrange your own transport, which is both difficult and costly.

And now it's super easy to fly back from Smellveggen, with all these big ass wingsuits. It wasn't so easy with my OG Phantom; I'm no Yuri! Now, really, all you need is a buddy and two cars, just like Brento.

Speaking of which, how much time do we have left for Kjerag...? Ya know, before the landing areas succumb to global warming, I mean climate change. We'll have to build a drone ship like Musky Boy's.
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Highradwarrior

Feb 25, 2018, 4:48 AM
Post #50 of 65 (5057 views)
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Re: [dmcoco84] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Fair enough... I appreciate some of the ideas being exchanged. I’ve read a ton on this site, but never thought to search this topic.

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