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We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks
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RoadBuzzard

Feb 6, 2018, 3:04 PM
Post #1 of 44 (2063 views)
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We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks Can't Post

The squeaky wheels get the grease.

RoadBuzzard

Feb 6, 2018, 3:26 PM
Post #2 of 44 (2037 views)
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Re: [RoadBuzzard] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Let's brainstorm

LeeroyJenkins

Feb 6, 2018, 3:44 PM
Post #3 of 44 (2021 views)
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Re: [RoadBuzzard] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sure people have tried to get paragliding and parasailing legalized with vague enough terms for BASE to be included too.

hjumper33
Moderator
Feb 6, 2018, 5:10 PM
Post #4 of 44 (1989 views)
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Re: [RoadBuzzard] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

ďHey NPS, we really want parachutes allowed in your parksĒ. NPS - ďwill that make us more money?Ē Us - ďnoĒ. End of discussion.

BigfcknG

Feb 6, 2018, 5:19 PM
Post #5 of 44 (1987 views)
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Re: [hjumper33] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Propose a paid permit system. There's their income.

seekfun

Feb 6, 2018, 6:16 PM
Post #6 of 44 (1970 views)
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Re: [BigfcknG] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

And then again, Her Majesty takes the freedoms and liberties from the peasants and sells them back to them.

BigfcknG

Feb 6, 2018, 6:29 PM
Post #7 of 44 (1959 views)
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Re: [seekfun] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Land of the free.

Whoever.told you that is your enemy.

hjumper33
Moderator
Feb 6, 2018, 7:37 PM
Post #8 of 44 (1940 views)
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Re: [BigfcknG] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Go to yosemite any time during the summer. The place is so packed with tourists that you can barley drive around. Unless they charged 10k a permit, thereís no reason for them to change anything. Technically, itís a permitable activity, they just donít grant the permits in most parks (see bridge day as an exception). They will also point out the death during the last protest jump. The nice thing is if youíre a decent base jumper, you can get away with jumping in just about any national park you want.

jski123

Feb 7, 2018, 11:39 AM
Post #9 of 44 (1730 views)
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Re: [RoadBuzzard] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Until the day I get busted I'm going to say that I really don't mind it. I might even go as far to say I kind of like that it's illegal. I enjoy the solitude of being on top without anybody else there.

TomAiello

Feb 7, 2018, 12:05 PM
Post #10 of 44 (1717 views)
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Re: [jski123] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

jski123 wrote:
Until the day I get busted I'm going to say that I really don't mind it. I might even go as far to say I kind of like that it's illegal. I enjoy the solitude of being on top without anybody else there.

This is a fair point, and one that is often overlooked.

I think that legalizing BASE in national parks in the USA would result in an almost instant circus, and a subsequent total ban.

If we want legal access to national parks, we first need to come up with a way to avoid that happening. Yosemite couldn't sustain LB's incident rate for three months, let alone permanently.

piisfish

Feb 7, 2018, 2:01 PM
Post #11 of 44 (1673 views)
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Re: [TomAiello] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

TomAiello wrote:
jski123 wrote:
Until the day I get busted I'm going to say that I really don't mind it. I might even go as far to say I kind of like that it's illegal. I enjoy the solitude of being on top without anybody else there.

This is a fair point, and one that is often overlooked.

I think that legalizing BASE in national parks in the USA would result in an almost instant circus, and a subsequent total ban.

If we want legal access to national parks, we first need to come up with a way to avoid that happening. Yosemite couldn't sustain LB's incident rate for three months, let alone permanently.
2017 was a pretty decent year in Ebola Valley fatality wise

setarkos

Feb 7, 2018, 2:19 PM
Post #12 of 44 (1670 views)
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Re: [piisfish] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Fatalities went down globally...

Legal Yosemite would probably also decrease the number of incidents in the Swiss valley.

Mitchpee

Feb 7, 2018, 3:14 PM
Post #13 of 44 (1650 views)
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Re: [TomAiello] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

TomAiello wrote:
jski123 wrote:
Until the day I get busted I'm going to say that I really don't mind it. I might even go as far to say I kind of like that it's illegal. I enjoy the solitude of being on top without anybody else there.

This is a fair point, and one that is often overlooked.

I think that legalizing BASE in national parks in the USA would result in an almost instant circus, and a subsequent total ban.

If we want legal access to national parks, we first need to come up with a way to avoid that happening. Yosemite couldn't sustain LB's incident rate for three months, let alone permanently.

To be honest I donít think itís a fair point at all. Itís actually more hypocritical. Letís say you do everything ďrightĒ jumping in parks have a tension knot and land in a tree. Then are you really going to say with a $3,000 bill and equipment replacement fees added onto your hospitals that you were happy itís illegal? If you can then congrats youíre not a hypocrite. But I doubt thatís the case.

Maybe thereís a way to prevent the circus atmosphere. I mean itís 2017 we are launching private enterprises into space maybe we could all come up with some ideas and productive conversation to integrate recreational activities in national parks instead of crossing our arms across and saying nope it just ainít gonna happen.

TomAiello

Feb 7, 2018, 3:35 PM
Post #14 of 44 (1643 views)
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Re: [Mitchpee] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Mitchpee wrote:
TomAiello wrote:
If we want legal access to national parks, we first need to come up with a way to avoid that happening.
...maybe we could all come up with some ideas and productive conversation to integrate recreational activities in national parks instead of crossing our arms across and saying nope it just ainít gonna happen.

I think you just said exactly the same thing that I said (see the bolded portion of my post, and the relevant portion of yours).

Rather than just agitating for access, there needs to be a plan on how that access would work (and what the accident mitigation strategy is).

Just "making a scene" without a plan isn't going to be very effective.

TomAiello

Feb 7, 2018, 3:38 PM
Post #15 of 44 (1641 views)
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Re: [setarkos] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

setarkos wrote:
Legal Yosemite would probably also decrease the number of incidents in the Swiss valley.

Yes, but it would probably increase the number of incidents in Yosemite.

Which of those statistics is important to the the US National Park Service?

I honestly don't think the NPS cares what the incident rate is in other places. They care about the incident rate in the lands they administer.

Agitating for legal access without some kind of plan is counterproductive. It just makes BASE jumpers generally look like a bunch of disorganized whiners. Presenting a reasonable plan that addresses the concerns of the NPS (incidents, impact on other park visitors, traffic, costs, etc.) is going to be much more productive.

Instead of "making a scene" we should be "drafting a plan".

Mitchpee

Feb 7, 2018, 3:54 PM
Post #16 of 44 (1634 views)
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Re: [TomAiello] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Post was directed at guy who said I like itís illegal until I have to suffer the consequences.

Not sure if the making a scene in quotes is in response to me or not but I can assure you Iíve never advocated for just making a scene. My position has always been slow, thorough and responsibly introduced park impact procedures.

zmorlock

Feb 7, 2018, 5:54 PM
Post #17 of 44 (1595 views)
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Re: [TomAiello] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Has a religious exemption ever been discussed?
Maybe a first amendment permit organized event, control the group as members of the church.

TomAiello

Feb 7, 2018, 6:03 PM
Post #18 of 44 (1591 views)
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Re: [zmorlock] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

zmorlock wrote:
Has a religious exemption ever been discussed?

It's been discussed many times.

I'm not sure that it's every been taken any further than that.

Mitchpee

Feb 7, 2018, 7:15 PM
Post #19 of 44 (1569 views)
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Re: [TomAiello] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Using loopholes to fit through loopholes wonít get us anywhere.

The NPS wants to see something organized. It doesnít have to be a governing body with rules and regulations necessary but a communal effort to seriously understand the risks and involvement of other people affected by our activity. Such as rescue plans to get us out from trees and cliff strikes, etc. Having a recordable decrease in fatalities is a good first step of evidence we can begin to show that we are better understanding the modes of death in our sport.

The problem is the inherent character of people who want to chase a life of flying from cliffs. We so very easily sell ourselves out in our hedonistic tendencies of living for the now all the time. I include myself in this unfortunate state of mind we sometimes struggle with balance. Things that will help is a general respect for operating margins and a greater appreciation for the little things.

Again, all this is going to have to come from a large group of motivated selfless people that need to get together without our own pleasure being at the forefront of every decision.

Until then letís just keep chasing that pleasure hoping we arenít the ones who are going to have to pay the price. Because we are effectively gambling and the house always wins unless you walk away first.

zmorlock

Feb 7, 2018, 7:41 PM
Post #20 of 44 (1552 views)
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Re: [Mitchpee] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/924601

Not a loophole but a way to organize, like you mentioned.


(This post was edited by zmorlock on Feb 7, 2018, 7:45 PM)

zmorlock

Feb 7, 2018, 8:25 PM
Post #21 of 44 (1532 views)
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Re: [Mitchpee] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Or a risk retention group for insurance, like the ushpa.

BigfcknG

Feb 7, 2018, 11:19 PM
Post #22 of 44 (1497 views)
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Re: [Mitchpee] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Fuckin good post.

dmcoco84

Feb 8, 2018, 1:20 AM
Post #23 of 44 (1468 views)
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Re: [Mitchpee] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The NPS wants to see something organized.

Are you surmising, or do you have some knowledge base that you can share?

In reply to:
It doesnít have to be a governing body with rules and regulations necessary but a communal effort to seriously understand the risks and involvement of other people affected by our activity. Such as rescue plans to get us out from trees and cliff strikes, etc. Having a recordable decrease in fatalities is a good first step of evidence we can begin to show that we are better understanding the modes of death in our sport.

I don't think any of this matters to them...

.

Mitchpee

Feb 8, 2018, 3:27 AM
Post #24 of 44 (1429 views)
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Re: [dmcoco84] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes lots of knowledge base of many meetings with superintendents. Happy to share as always with those who care.

Thatís okay you donít think but my personal experience discussing the topic at hand with NPS figures contradicts your feeling of doubt. So think what you will.

TomAiello

Feb 8, 2018, 6:22 AM
Post #25 of 44 (1383 views)
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Re: [Mitchpee] We need to start making a scene about parafoil prohibition in USA national parks [In reply to] Can't Post

Mitchpee wrote:
Yes lots of knowledge base of many meetings with superintendents. Happy to share as always with those who care.

I've also met with Superintendents on this issue.

My take is that some kind of outfitter/guiding license set up is most likely to be the initial entry point, and that general access would be years (maybe decades) behind that, if ever.

The people I talked to were very interested in having someone (preferably someone with a financial stake) be on the hook for problems. And that is going to be problematic because (a) no one wants to be responsible for the (let's face it, inevitable) misbehavior of other jumpers, and (b) whoever took the license and agreed to be responsible would probably be viewed as a massive sell out by a large number of other BASE jumpers. Even someone as well liked as Mario got a lot of static from other jumpers when he tried to put together a license to operate in areas that _already had general access_.

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