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Follow up advice after FJC?
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jools

Jan 31, 2018, 7:28 AM
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Follow up advice after FJC? Can't Post

Iím not going to mention any names but I was recently told by a friend that a FJC course asked for an additional payment when he asked them for advice on how to set/adjust their brakes after a re-line. He was basically told to pay $1,000 for the course agin.
For clarity, the guy had already paid for his initial FJC with them and simply contacted them for additional/follow up advice a couple of years down the line.

Is it just me or is this nearly as funny/sad/money grabbing as the guy who sent out invoices for £1,000 to several ďfriendsĒ for ďmentoringĒ several months after joining them on a trip to France? (Pretty sure they all told him to fuck off and still laugh about it now).

Surely basic follow up advice and help is a given once youíve paid the initial course fees?
I know these guys have to eat but $1,000 to tell someone how to adjust their brakes is a bit steep donít you think?


Laters.

Julian

platypii

Jan 31, 2018, 8:11 AM
Post #2 of 26 (3837 views)
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Re: [jools] Follow up advice after FJC? [In reply to] Can't Post

If this is the guy I'm thinking of, I would say you are wildly misinterpreting the situation.

Guy posts a question about how to set custom deep brakes. Many people respond "hey that's not really something to teach over the internet, you should take an object avoidance course." That's not at all the same as saying "pay more if you want questions answered post fjc"

And by the way, his question was also answered in that same thread, with multi-paragraph explanations of how to do it, by someone affiliated with the school. So not only did they not "ask for an additional payment when he asked them for advice" but they answered the question, and just encouraged said person to not go re-invent the wheel alone.

jools

Jan 31, 2018, 8:41 AM
Post #3 of 26 (3815 views)
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Re: [platypii] Follow up advice after FJC? [In reply to] Can't Post

Pretty sure itís a different person.
Have you got a link to the original thread as I cannot find anything.
Oh and I didnít say it was a school 😇

nickgreen

Jan 31, 2018, 10:04 AM
Post #4 of 26 (3776 views)
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Re: [jools] Follow up advice after FJC? [In reply to] Can't Post

That seems obscene to me but it's their choice!
When I did my FJC with Douggs I paid once and that's it, I can go back on as many FJC's as I like (as long as there's room, I believe 6 past course members is the limit), and we can ask as many questions as we like, for free, so while it might seem like an expensive course initially, the lifetime of quality mentoring that goes along with it far outweighs the initial course fee.

TomAiello

Jan 31, 2018, 10:29 AM
Post #5 of 26 (3758 views)
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Re: [jools] Follow up advice after FJC? [In reply to] Can't Post

To be clear: Was your friend asking for a refresher on material covered in a course he had already taken, or was he asking for instruction on new material that was not covered in his course, and expecting to receive that additional instruction free of charge?


Brake setting adjustment is pretty complicated, and there is a lot of room for (critical) errors that can result in major injuries.

In my view it takes (at minimum) two full days to find, set and verify a good DBS.

For years, I tried to help people set brakes outside of courses. I stopped doing that because people were in such a hurry that they wouldn't take the time to properly test and verify the settings.

As a result, as a policy, neither I nor any or the Snake River BASE instructors set brakes outside of Object Avoidance courses. Once a student has taken that course they are welcome to audit (for no charge) the course at any time, as many times as they wish, to set new brakes (on the same canopy or a different one) at any time in the future.

If someone is setting a good DBS in an introductory course, I'd be very surprised. I have more practice setting DBS than anyone else, and there is no way that I could cram that process into the Fundamentals course, along with everything else that's in that course.

Expecting someone to provide the value of an additional service (setting DBS outside of a course) without any compensation seems fairly presumptious to me. If someone asks for advice on how to set DBS, my normal answer is "take the Object Avoidance Course, and we will do the entire process so you can learn how to do it." After they've done that, they're always welcome to follow up (for free) by auditing that course and setting brakes on other canopies.


edit to add: I've noticed that sometimes there is confusion about the difference between a brake setting and a toggle setting, and I've heard people somehow form the impression that I think setting your toggles takes multiple days and should be done in a structured course environment. I don't. Was your friend asking about brake settings or toggle settings?


(This post was edited by TomAiello on Jan 31, 2018, 10:35 AM)

jools

Jan 31, 2018, 12:12 PM
Post #6 of 26 (3707 views)
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Re: [TomAiello] Follow up advice after FJC? [In reply to] Can't Post

From what I can understand he was asking for a refresher of things already covered hence my post.


It is regarding both brake and toggle settings.

TomAiello

Jan 31, 2018, 2:25 PM
Post #7 of 26 (3647 views)
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Re: [jools] Follow up advice after FJC? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure what to say.

I do know of one major FJC provider who basically has a "pay again and do the course again" policy for refresh/repeat. But I don't think that one does any brake setting work.

As I said though, I couldn't find a way to shoehorn brake settings into an introductory course and do even a halfway decent job of them. It's just too much to cover in the normal sort of time frame.

AntoineLaporte

Feb 1, 2018, 2:06 AM
Post #8 of 26 (3513 views)
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Re: [jools] Follow up advice after FJC? [In reply to] Can't Post

What is very surprising for me is the lack of sharing between the jumpers.
Or maybe the jumpers have no friends and all jump alone ?
How can you not find somebody with enough experience to help you set your brakes ?
It makes me sad to see this lack of will when it comes to take some time to meet people and learn from them by just being there when they are jumping. I learnt a lot by just observing and asking simple questions, and when you ask gently people are answering.

To be back to the initial subject if somenody ask you to pay $1000 and you don't want to pay, just don't and go elsewhere.
If you already payed for the course and just want a refresh on the SAME course you should not pay again.

jools

Feb 1, 2018, 7:00 AM
Post #9 of 26 (3451 views)
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Re: [AntoineLaporte] Follow up advice after FJC? [In reply to] Can't Post

Received this in a message, made me laugh and I gotta say I agree 110% .

"The answer to everything in my mind is get a fucking mentor and stop paying someone to pretend they care about your jumping"

Now that is a nugget!


Laters,

Julian

jools

Feb 1, 2018, 7:06 AM
Post #10 of 26 (3448 views)
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Re: [TomAiello] Follow up advice after FJC? [In reply to] Can't Post

Am I correct in understanding that no FJC touch of deep brake settings?

Surely this is one of the most basic and important bits of information available to a new jumper when jumping anything other than a bridge? I'm not saying spend hrs actually setting the brakes for them but surely basic theory and technique should be covered?


Not trying to stir up shit here but it was actually one of the few things my FJC covered. Not a word about mals or how to deal with them but deep brake theory was covered.


Laters,

Julian

TomAiello

Feb 1, 2018, 7:16 AM
Post #11 of 26 (3447 views)
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Re: [jools] Follow up advice after FJC? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sure most courses talk about DBS generally, but I'm not aware of any introductory course that actually sets them.

The problem is that it's too easy to screw them up. Almost every time someone asks me for advice on their DBS via internet (email, forum, facebook, whatever) they've done a terrible job of setting them, and really have very little understanding of what they are doing.

The most common mistake is to evaluate the DBS immediately after opening, without touching any controls. People tend to see a canopy that parks pretty well and think "awesome, I've set perfect DBS!" when they really have a deathtrap that will stall immediately on any riser input.

You'd be amazed how many times people have sent me video of an opening and said "what do you think? great DBS isn't it?" when the video just shows an on heading opening followed by the jumper popping toggles and flying away--with absolutely no way to evaluate the performance of the DBS during heading correction in an avoidance situation. So many people (which includes people teaching courses, actually, and teaching this approach to their students) think that it's "good enough", when actually they have created a mystery setting that's just waiting to surprise them during their next major off heading. Apparently, off headings toward solid objects aren't exciting enough, and we need to to add some extra random factors to make things interesting.

It's mistakes like this that have led me to recommend going through an entire (multi day) process of testing, evaluation and verification (by packing intentional 180's and seeing how the DBS perform in that situation), and my great reluctance to give people just part of the process.

I feel like if I just give them an explanation of how to do it, 90% (seriously, 9 out of 10) do such a poor job that they would have been better off just sticking with the factory brake settings.


(This post was edited by TomAiello on Feb 1, 2018, 7:16 AM)

AntoineLaporte

Feb 1, 2018, 2:47 PM
Post #12 of 26 (3352 views)
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Re: [jools] Follow up advice after FJC? [In reply to] Can't Post

The original post is talking about just setting brakes after a reline, not the DBS.
I guess it's a part of every FJC as the first thing that should be done when jumping a new canopy (new for the jumper, not even brand new) is to test the brakes and toggles settings and to change them if needed.

Dadsy

Feb 2, 2018, 3:24 AM
Post #13 of 26 (3239 views)
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Re: [jools] Follow up advice after FJC? [In reply to] Can't Post

depending on where you live in the world just "get a fucking mentor" isnt always an option

AntoineLaporte

Feb 2, 2018, 5:34 AM
Post #14 of 26 (3218 views)
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Re: [Dadsy] Follow up advice after FJC? [In reply to] Can't Post

Dadsy wrote:
depending on where you live in the world just "get a fucking mentor" isnt always an option

Yes, no problem with that.
It's more for the after FJC, you are supposed to jump, to meet people and probably some of them with enough experience to help you setting your brakes (if you forgot how to after your FJC where you learnt it).

TomAiello

Feb 2, 2018, 6:14 AM
Post #15 of 26 (3202 views)
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Re: [AntoineLaporte] Follow up advice after FJC? [In reply to] Can't Post

AntoineLaporte wrote:
The original post is talking about just setting brakes after a reline, not the DBS.

If you are putting on a factory line set, the factory brake settings are already present.

If you can do a reline from scratch, replicating the factory brakes should be very easy for you.

If you are paying someone to do the reline for you, then that person ought to be able to just replicate the factory brakes (either by using a factory line set or by copying them from your existing lines).

You should certainly test jump the new line set (and the brakes) from a relatively safe object after any reline, but I don't really see how this is a process that requires additional guidance from your original instructor. Either you know how to do it (no problem) or you pay someone to do the work for you (also no problem).

AntoineLaporte

Feb 2, 2018, 6:35 AM
Post #16 of 26 (3196 views)
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Re: [TomAiello] Follow up advice after FJC? [In reply to] Can't Post

TomAiello wrote:
You should certainly test jump the new line set (and the brakes) from a relatively safe object after any reline, but I don't really see how this is a process that requires additional guidance from your original instructor. Either you know how to do it (no problem) or you pay someone to do the work for you (also no problem).

I was guessing setting the brakes was part of a FJC, and by setting the brakes I was also thinking to the DBS. I'm not talking about doing it, but more like how to do it.
If it's not I think it should. Just a personnal thought.

BTW I would not copy the factory settings on used lines as they are probably 5cm or more shorter than when they were new.

TomAiello

Feb 2, 2018, 7:06 AM
Post #17 of 26 (3183 views)
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Re: [AntoineLaporte] Follow up advice after FJC? [In reply to] Can't Post

AntoineLaporte wrote:
BTW I would not copy the factory settings on used lines as they are probably 5cm or more shorter than when they were new.

What kind of lines?

I always see a difference, but usually I see the used line longer than the new one on 900 dacron.

Regardless, what I meant was that you are either using a factory line set or working from a factory specification. The only time I physically copy, it's just a lower control line, and I cheat the brake setting shallower because (a) an overly deep setting is far more dangerous than an overly shallow one, and (b) in my view any setting used for a solid, slider down object ought to be customized, tested and verified anyway--not just a factory setting.

Basically, I only "eyeball" settings that are for use on things like the bridge, and when I do that I make them a bit shallow to hedge against error (and even then we test them).

AntoineLaporte

Feb 2, 2018, 7:21 AM
Post #18 of 26 (3177 views)
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Re: [TomAiello] Follow up advice after FJC? [In reply to] Can't Post

My bad I wanted to put longer or shorter.
I hear or read that at some point the lost of elasticity was making some lines no more longer but shorter. I did only reline my own canopies so I'm not enough experienced so check if it true or not.

SLAMBO

Feb 2, 2018, 12:41 PM
Post #19 of 26 (3095 views)
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Re: [jools] Follow up advice after FJC? [In reply to] Can't Post

Man, what happened to the good old fashion mentorship?

jools

Feb 3, 2018, 4:24 AM
Post #20 of 26 (3000 views)
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Re: [SLAMBO] Follow up advice after FJC? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thatís an easy one.
Too many people took an FJC and didnít learn anything/much after the FJC. They then ďteachĒ a buddy and pass on their knowledge but unfortunately they donít have sufficient knowledge to pass on because all they know is what they pick up on their FJC and the little extra friends have told them.
Basically you cannot teach what you donít know.
And the vast majority of jumpers these days have VERY limited knowledge. Shit, a friend of mine had to step in during a FJC and show the ďinstructorĒ how to PCA because the method he was showing his student was terrible. If he hadnít his students would have one day taught their friends the same thing because itís all they know. Therefore there may be experienced jumpers but non are fit to mentor.

Far to many people taking money for FJCs who have no business running one.

Laters


Julian.


(This post was edited by jools on Feb 3, 2018, 4:26 AM)

Dadsy

Feb 3, 2018, 4:38 AM
Post #21 of 26 (2996 views)
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Re: [jools] Follow up advice after FJC? [In reply to] Can't Post

Or the people that were mentored didn't then mentor others, the mentor thing was fine when there was a handful of people wanting to learn, that simply isn't the case now and hasn't been for a long time


(This post was edited by Dadsy on Feb 3, 2018, 4:39 AM)

jools

Feb 3, 2018, 5:34 AM
Post #22 of 26 (2978 views)
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Re: [Dadsy] Follow up advice after FJC? [In reply to] Can't Post

There is still plenty of opportunity to learn after an FJC. Living in an area without other jumpers is not an excuse.
For years there were no other jumpers in NW England. Read,travel, make friends and talk to people both on line and at events.

There are also many good articles & info out there, many on here.
At a guess Iíd say 99.9% of new students donít even bother to read up on things like tailgates, LRM, slider control, deep brake etc BEFORE their course.

People are lazy and itís now become a case of the blind leading the blind.
The knowledge pool is super diluted and itís getting worse.
To charge extra for follow up, potentially life saving, info is plain wrong in my book.

Laters,


Julian


(This post was edited by jools on Feb 3, 2018, 5:36 AM)

jamie-the-para

Feb 7, 2018, 11:43 AM
Post #23 of 26 (2626 views)
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Re: [jools] Follow up advice after FJC? [In reply to] Can't Post

Always having a pop arenít you Jools 😂 I find it entertaining that youíre still focused on slagging me off at every opportunity... but there we go.

Just to clarify - and I still have all correspondence from the said person to back it up. A friend contacted me regarding a Jumper jumping alone in the UK who was teaching himself - I reached out and offered a course to him as I was running one for a friend that week anyway & even tho he had done a few jumps already I told him what he doesnít know will hurt him; in the first msg told him it would cost £1000 if he was interested, then the offer is open. The said jumper told me he didnít have the money but would love to come to France and learn more and if he covers my expenses can he pay me after the course for the course.... so I agreed. After the course he told me that he was really struggling with money so I told him and I quote ďdonít worry about it, pay me when you can, Iím glad you have the information to keep you safe while out jumping now; which is the most important thing., I know what itís like to have no moneyĒ then a few months later he is buying loads of brand new rigs....

Obviously Iím now just waiting for your reply saying something like what a load of shit or Iím a bullshitter / liar or numerous other things you keep saying about me to anyone who will listen but there we go... But to the jumper in question - Iím pretty sure you will read this and if we get along or not now, Iím sure you will recall this conversation. But itís probably not as cool a story as just telling me to fuck off....

To jools & the said jumper, the animosity is unnecessary. We live in different countries, we live different lives. Our paths hardly ever cross. Iíve drawn a line in the sand turned my back and moved on. We just donít like each other and thatís fine... why do we even try and continue having sly digs or slag each other off at every opportunity- itís just a huge waste of everyoneís time and itís so negative in a positive sport.

Anyway... We digress I just think that I should have my say while you slander me in a passive aggressive manner across the internet.

Back to your main post $1000 for follow up advice is for sure is Steep, follow up advice after a course in my opinion should be free.

Jamie Flynn

piisfish

Feb 7, 2018, 2:04 PM
Post #24 of 26 (2582 views)
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Re: [jamie-the-para] Follow up advice after FJC? [In reply to] Can't Post

Boom. The other side of the story

jools

Feb 8, 2018, 12:25 AM
Post #25 of 26 (2484 views)
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Re: [jamie-the-para] Follow up advice after FJC? [In reply to] Can't Post

Only 1 person you sent invoices to Jamie? You sure there wasnít several others? Genuine question, several people claim otherwise and Iím at a loss who to believe.

As for sly digs? Iím pretty sure Iíve said everything to you personally over the years? Pretty sure Iíve still got all the PMs if you want the re-sending? Nothing sly in that.
As for the rest of it? You hardly feature on my radar. Iím pretty sure it is you who is making all the attention seeking posts on FB not me. Saying that I blocked you ages ago, so I have no clue. Just what others tell me.

But hey ho, whatever.
Keep up the good work and have fun pal xxx


Laters

Julian .


(This post was edited by jools on Feb 8, 2018, 3:15 AM)

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