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Squirrel CR+ (and maybe C RACE) pitching
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AntoineLaporte

Apr 18, 2017, 2:55 AM
Post #1 of 18 (4088 views)
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Squirrel CR+ (and maybe C RACE) pitching Can't Post

Before anything it is important to say that Squirrel qualify this suit as EXPERT for very EXPERIENCED pilot and recommend to skydive it before BASE.

I hope this will make clear that if people are not following this recommendations and have troubles it's their entire fault.

However I just wanted to spread the word that the CR+ with the new inlets makes the pitching harder than usual.
Harder does not mean impossible, but you have to get ready to need power to deflate the wing to reach the PC.
After a good look the the air inlets you can see that the air-locks are way more efficient on these, making the wing more stable in hard turns and unstable air, but at the same time making the deflation harder and longer.
Some pilots even stops using their in BASE because of that.

If you want to change this you can "neutralize" the airlocks with some tubes (plastic or carton) going through them and some tape (or small sewing) to keep them in place, pressure will not change, just the wing will be less "strong" in a not stable air and it will be easier to deflate it.
Apparently removing the performance foam give some room to the arm to initiate the pitching movement and make it easier too.

I can only say that following strictly the Squirrel recommendations is mandatory, people are too much used to very easy suits and think too much that they are all the same.
Please tell it to your friends before anything stupid happen (again).

desert1

Apr 18, 2017, 9:02 AM
Post #2 of 18 (3959 views)
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Re: [AntoineLaporte] Squirrel CR+ (and maybe C RACE) pitching [In reply to] Can't Post

Just for info on airlock cells/wings:

Robert made airlocked arm and leg wings in 2007. Only him and me were jumping them before he decided that the danger is not offset by the performace increase and will not install them. We both had strength and pull issues with every pull on every jump.

Enjoy,

Luka

bluhdow

Apr 18, 2017, 10:26 AM
Post #3 of 18 (3919 views)
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Re: [AntoineLaporte] Squirrel CR+ (and maybe C RACE) pitching [In reply to] Can't Post

I suspect that this is relevant, and maybe even the reason for the post:

http://www.blincmagazine.com/...p?title=Nicola_Galli

Skydive your suits guys. You know, at least a couple of times.

unclecharlie95

Apr 18, 2017, 11:06 AM
Post #4 of 18 (3889 views)
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Re: [AntoineLaporte] Squirrel CR+ (and maybe C RACE) pitching [In reply to] Can't Post

The blue "profile" foam inserts were likely a factor in Nicola's accident as they make the tight arm sleeves even more rigid. This has caught out others who now choose not to use the blue foams for BASE.

The C-Race is an amazing racing suit, the best performance currently on the market, it is what I would want to wear for a competition tomorrow. BUT please always skydive your gear. I was 2nd on scene for Nicola.. Heart breaking.

AntoineLaporte

Apr 18, 2017, 1:13 PM
Post #5 of 18 (3795 views)
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Re: [AntoineLaporte] Squirrel CR+ (and maybe C RACE) pitching [In reply to] Can't Post

I forgot about what I think is the best to solve this problem:
The Wingtip Pouch Wioletta
https://www.facebook.com/Wingpouch/?fref=ts

No problem to reach the PC, you will always have the "handle" in your hand.
If it was added to the suits as an option it would add a cost for sure, but when you are ready to pay 300 for a custom color don't you think that this cost which might save your life does not worth the price ?

DFR

Apr 19, 2017, 11:12 PM
Post #6 of 18 (3408 views)
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Re: [AntoineLaporte] Squirrel CR+ (and maybe C RACE) pitching [In reply to] Can't Post

Squirrel wrote:
"*Note: C-RACE, BASE Version. If you are looking to compete in a BASE Race event, tell us before you place your C-RACE order. We will make you a BASE optimized version of the suit."

http://squirrel.ws/wingsuits/c-race

Does anyone know what the changes are? Is it different inlets?

My new Aura3 has "Compression Inlets" which look abut the same as all the Craces I've seen but on the site it says "BASE-Optimized compression inlet" so maybe it's different? There is definitely more internal pressure in the 3 than the 1, but I didn't find the pull all that much harder. However if I put the performance foam in (which explicitly says not for BASE) even with the suit on the ground, the pull is a bit harder to reach.

So maybe the lessons are:

-Don't BASE jump a suit you've never skydived
-Don't jump the foam that explicitly says "Not for BASE"
-If a suit comes with a warning that says "If you're going to BASE jump the suit, get the BASE model" you should follow it

AntoineLaporte

Apr 20, 2017, 1:23 AM
Post #7 of 18 (3357 views)
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Re: [DFR] Squirrel CR+ (and maybe C RACE) pitching [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There is definitely more internal pressure in the 3 than the 1, but I didn't find the pull all that much harder.
Harder to deflate does not always mean more pressure but it is usually more efficient air-locks.
I would like to have some real measurement to state that the pressure has increase. Pressure is also related to speed and exposure of the inlets to relative wind (arm position can change it with the same speed).

In reply to:
So maybe the lessons are:

-Don't BASE jump a suit you've never skydived
-Don't jump the foam that explicitly says "Not for BASE"
-If a suit comes with a warning that says "If you're going to BASE jump the suit, get the BASE model" you should follow it

Completely agree, Squirrel put all the warnings they can.
This post was not made to blame them at all, just to warm even more people so it can avoid some people to do stupid things like not reading the warnings.

AntoineLaporte

Jul 12, 2017, 2:19 PM
Post #8 of 18 (2117 views)
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Re: [AntoineLaporte] Squirrel CR+ (and maybe C RACE) pitching [In reply to] Can't Post

basefetish wrote:
Its NOT that a wingsuit company offered someone prize money to do something dangerous.

No it's a company giving a suit to a sponsored athlete, not like a company giving some money to do something dangerous like basejumping in a racing suit...

basefetish wrote:
The fact is that a wingsuit company made a race suit for skydiving and then someone took it to BASE and pulled low with the wrong gear- wrong container, wrong suit, wrong altitude. after being told it was not a good idea.

The CEO of the comany told him that it was ok to jump it in BASE, a video about gaining altitude has been done with the exact same suit. This someone has BASE it with the approval of the company.
FWY you should read the report from the 2 other jumpers who both said that Micah has finished his flare higher than them on this jump.

basefetish wrote:
If you consider yourself an expert and someone who cares about base jumpers than you should be talking about low pulls and equipment choices maybe. not warning labels.

I'm not an expert, I'm just feeling concern by how to try our best to avoid people dying. All this is about equipment choice and in this case the wingsuit, because with any other suit this container is not a problem.
Is it somewhere written "you must have a longer container to have an easier pull which will still not be an easy pull whatever equipment you choose with this wingsuit" ?

basefetish wrote:
If we wrote the BFL report before the accident, and said Hey everybody what do you think about pulling at 300' in this wingsuit with this container? All the smart guys here would say "bad idea! you could die!"

Again he did not pull at 300'. May be the CEO of the company should not tell "if you do everything good you should survive" but "bad idea! you could die!" as you are saying right now, because there is a very big difference between this 2 advise.

We will not agree but my points are still:
- sponsored athletes should not be allowed to jump this suit in BASE by the company
- it should be written clearly that the pitching is very technical and that because of this this suit is for skydiving only
- it should be written clearly that the emergency pull is not always possible and that because of this this suit is for skydiving only
- it should be written that you have to have a longer container to make the pull easier (still not easy)

It's almost the first suit that is more dangerous than the previous version because the only way to land safely in BASE is to pitch the only canopy we got.
And this basic need is for the first time since a very long time tricky, and sometime not possible even for a very experienced pilot pitching at a normal altitude.

TomAiello

Jul 12, 2017, 3:06 PM
Post #9 of 18 (2085 views)
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Re: [AntoineLaporte] Squirrel CR+ (and maybe C RACE) pitching [In reply to] Can't Post

AntoineLaporte wrote:
- sponsored athletes should not be allowed to jump this suit in BASE by the company

Would they enforce that by ending their sponsorship if someone chose to BASE jump this sort of suit?

We can all say "I wouldn't let someone do that" but in the end, you can't stop someone. Even if you're on the exit point with them, what are you going to do? Wrestle them to the ground and rip the suit off them?

It's BASE. You can't stop someone from doing something that you think is a bad idea. All you can do is remove yourself from association with them.

hjumper33
Moderator
Jul 12, 2017, 5:22 PM
Post #10 of 18 (2043 views)
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Re: [AntoineLaporte] Squirrel CR+ (and maybe C RACE) pitching [In reply to] Can't Post

Given your concerns, I recommend you not buy a c-race.

last time I checked, squirrel wasn't proving a handgun with every suit and directions how to pull the trigger.

The crace manual clearly addresses all the concerns you bring up. An email was sent last week to all dealers, factory pilots, ect discussing these exact details as well.

Feet shoulder width apart. Pants off. Hop up and down a couple times, sand should fall right out ;)

Fledgling

Jul 12, 2017, 5:43 PM
Post #11 of 18 (2029 views)
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Re: [TomAiello] Squirrel CR+ (and maybe C RACE) pitching [In reply to] Can't Post

TomAiello wrote:
All you can do is remove yourself from association with them.
Exactly. But they wouldn't and didn't. The only company that comes to mind right now that had the balls to do this is Clif Bar. They decided that certain athletes were headed in a direction that they didn't want as the face of their company and they dropped their contracts. We all know how that ended.
This is not a new problem. Sponsors give sponsorship in return for publicity. When the latest super rad goes in there is another lined up to take his place.

BASEMenace2

Jul 15, 2017, 3:55 AM
Post #12 of 18 (1642 views)
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Re: [Fledgling] Squirrel CR+ (and maybe C RACE) pitching [In reply to] Can't Post

Finnally...someone brings up an interesting point

Maybe the problem in general is our unwillingness to tell our good, highly talented friends that what they are doing is a problem and will hurt them in the future. Maybe its also a lot of younger pilots chasing the dragon and not listening to the numeorus warning signs.

AntoineLaporte

Jul 15, 2017, 8:13 AM
Post #13 of 18 (1576 views)
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Re: [BASEMenace2] Squirrel CR+ (and maybe C RACE) pitching [In reply to] Can't Post

BASEMenace2 wrote:
Finnally...someone brings up an interesting point

Maybe the problem in general is our unwillingness to tell our good, highly talented friends that what they are doing is a problem and will hurt them in the future. Maybe its also a lot of younger pilots chasing the dragon and not listening to the numeorus warning signs.

+1, it's all I ask for, from all of us AND from the companies.

bluhdow

Jul 18, 2017, 2:43 PM
Post #14 of 18 (1234 views)
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Re: [hjumper33] Squirrel CR+ (and maybe C RACE) pitching [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder if the solution here already exists. My mind keeps going back to wingsuits with integrated containers. That would ensure that the container length is appropriate (read: perfect) for the suit being flown, and the pilot flying it.

It seems like many of these race-inspired mods can negatively impact safety (pressurization/arm rigidity/wing size)...but isn't this one mod that could help benefit the speed of the suit AND improve the safety of it?

I understand the problems with it:

1. It's not a great business venture. Not a lot of people are willing to pay like $4,000 for a WS/rig that they can only use for one purpose. Especially if they think you're releasing another one in 6 months. But if you really want to buy a race car...why should you expect it to have good gas mileage as well? Maybe these suits have come far enough along that the versatility is going to necessarily be impacted.

2. You can't skydive it. This is a big one for me and I'm not sure what the solution is.

I know Tony played with it a few years back. Maybe he was ahead of his time. Maybe it's time for a TSO'd wingsuit/container system. Then you could own a skydive version and BASE version...but that's expensive.

But then again, racing is expensive. Cars, horses, motorcycles, boats, you name it. Hell, I even know people who spend a lot of money to travel around racing f*cking marathons. Maybe we're at a fork in the road where we have to decide if we want purpose-built race machines or if we're all happy to keep on racing our daily drivers.

AntoineLaporte

Jul 19, 2017, 6:52 AM
Post #15 of 18 (1088 views)
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Re: [bluhdow] Squirrel CR+ (and maybe C RACE) pitching [In reply to] Can't Post

I made my semi integrated container.
It's zipped on the suit and you can replace it by a "normal back" and jump with a normal rig or even a skydive rig (would require only to put the 2 zippers for the handles in the front).
My PC is 20 cm from my hand when I'm tracking, I still have to slightly bend the elbow to catch it, if it was not the case it could be dangerous I think.

bluhdow

Jul 19, 2017, 8:38 AM
Post #16 of 18 (1046 views)
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Re: [AntoineLaporte] Squirrel CR+ (and maybe C RACE) pitching [In reply to] Can't Post

That's interesting. I would love to see a photo of it in multiple configurations!

hjumper33
Moderator
Jul 19, 2017, 10:42 AM
Post #17 of 18 (989 views)
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Re: [bluhdow] Squirrel CR+ (and maybe C RACE) pitching [In reply to] Can't Post

Definitely a good thought. I think longer containers are achieving a lot of this, and probably should be mandatory for anyone flying a wingsuit. I'm not sure integrated containers will ever completely catch on for the reasons you already listed, but if you're at a level to fly a suit like this, a longer length container should be a given.

AntoineLaporte

Jul 20, 2017, 12:26 AM
Post #18 of 18 (813 views)
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Re: [bluhdow] Squirrel CR+ (and maybe C RACE) pitching [In reply to] Can't Post

Suit with the back to put any container:
https://www.facebook.com/.../?type=3&theater
Suit with the integrated container:
https://www.facebook.com/.../?type=3&theater
The 2 last suits I made, one with the integrated container on me, one with the replacing back so people can test it (here with an Asylum container)
https://www.facebook.com/..._id=1500493736558677

I can use my container on my wingsuit also, that make the container more "affordable" as it is not a one use only.
This container has bee use on my previous suit too and will probably used on the next one.

A lot of people are talking about muscle memory problems with the Wingtip pouch put it took me 10 jumps with this container to get completly used to the PC handle position. I'm sure it is normal, and when I put my old Gargoyle on I have no problem to find the PC. The brain has just to add something new, it is not replacing the old one. Same for WTP, it's not because you have one that you will not be able to use a BOC.


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