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REDAKTOR

Dec 13, 2016, 3:49 AM
Post #1 of 34 (4040 views)
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And they say stupid has an absolute low... Can't Post

Well it doesn'tSly

I belive the 1:35 part takes the dumbass cake?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU0aEQ3PAG0

Lukasz_Se

Dec 13, 2016, 6:36 AM
Post #2 of 34 (3930 views)
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Re: [REDAKTOR] And they say stupid has an absolute low... [In reply to] Can't Post

If he had a wingsuit on he would be fine

RiggerLee

Dec 13, 2016, 7:52 AM
Post #3 of 34 (3876 views)
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Re: [REDAKTOR] And they say stupid has an absolute low... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure any of those count as fails in their book.

Lee

jakee

Dec 14, 2016, 12:31 PM
Post #4 of 34 (3414 views)
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Re: [RiggerLee] And they say stupid has an absolute low... [In reply to] Can't Post

RiggerLee wrote:
I'm not sure any of those count as fails in their book.

Especially that whole turning 90 degrees through deployment. Seems to be just how they do things Tongue

OLopez

Dec 14, 2016, 3:00 PM
Post #5 of 34 (3314 views)
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Re: [REDAKTOR] And they say stupid has an absolute low... [In reply to] Can't Post

What's going on with that canopy at 35s? It turned similarly to when stalling on rears and dropping one, except he wasn't doing that?

Can't figure it out

Fledgling

Dec 14, 2016, 5:29 PM
Post #6 of 34 (3253 views)
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Re: [OLopez] And they say stupid has an absolute low... [In reply to] Can't Post

Stalled turn. You can see the canopy begins falling backwards on the jumpers right followed by the stall surge when he lets up the input. Probably due to the aggressive input before the canopy had enough airspeed.
Essentially behaves as you described except for the fact it was initiated by aggressive toggle input on one side only. Another time you will see stalled turns is when people try to turn on deep braked approaches.

REDAKTOR

Dec 15, 2016, 2:59 AM
Post #7 of 34 (3054 views)
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Re: [Fledgling] And they say stupid has an absolute low... [In reply to] Can't Post

Fledgling wrote:
Stalled turn. You can see the canopy begins falling backwards on the jumpers right followed by the stall surge when he lets up the input. Probably due to the aggressive input before the canopy had enough airspeed.
Essentially behaves as you described except for the fact it was initiated by aggressive toggle input on one side only. Another time you will see stalled turns is when people try to turn on deep braked approaches.
That + his canopy has quite a bit of jumps on it without a reline so the A lines streched far out beyond the canopy trim setting.

OLopez

Dec 15, 2016, 6:42 AM
Post #8 of 34 (2995 views)
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Re: [Fledgling] And they say stupid has an absolute low... [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting. Never seen a canopy before stall and flick around so quick when digging a single toggle.

wasatchrider

Dec 15, 2016, 6:53 AM
Post #9 of 34 (2983 views)
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Re: [REDAKTOR] And they say stupid has an absolute low... [In reply to] Can't Post

Ive never seen lines that have stretched before

Zebu

Dec 15, 2016, 9:02 AM
Post #10 of 34 (2914 views)
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Re: [REDAKTOR] And they say stupid has an absolute low... [In reply to] Can't Post

REDAKTOR wrote:
Fledgling wrote:
Stalled turn. You can see the canopy begins falling backwards on the jumpers right followed by the stall surge when he lets up the input. Probably due to the aggressive input before the canopy had enough airspeed.
Essentially behaves as you described except for the fact it was initiated by aggressive toggle input on one side only. Another time you will see stalled turns is when people try to turn on deep braked approaches.
That + his canopy has quite a bit of jumps on it without a reline so the A lines streched far out beyond the canopy trim setting.


I'd have to say burying a toggle to nearly your freaking knee has more of an effect than how many jumps the canopy has on it eh? Tongue

He popped both toggles, immediately let one up and while burying the other. It's how you do a snap-turn if you get on the toggles fast enough (one side stalls while the other surges and you helicopter around quickly)....but after an aggressive input like that you should *in general* return to ~half brakes. If you watch the video, you'll see his PC is actually in front of his canopy for a second after the turn. Right after finishing the 180, if he'd brought his left toggle back down to half brakes and his right toggle back up to half brakes, it wouldn't have surged.

Fun video to watch :) Thanks for sharing!


(This post was edited by Zebu on Dec 15, 2016, 9:10 AM)

Fledgling

Dec 15, 2016, 9:22 AM
Post #11 of 34 (2891 views)
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Re: [OLopez] And they say stupid has an absolute low... [In reply to] Can't Post

OLopez wrote:
Interesting. Never seen a canopy before stall and flick around so quick when digging a single toggle.
Now you have :-) Probably wouldn't have happened if the canopy was at maximum airspeed. Like I said it is more likely when people are trying to maneuver from deep brakes and take one side of their canopy into a stall.

wasatchrider wrote:
Ive never seen lines that have stretched before
It's what dacron does, that's why we use it. Incidentally it is worse on dyed dacron. I have seen lines stretch several inches on a single jump.

Zebu wrote:
but after an aggressive input like that you should *in general* return to ~half brakes.
Would have definitely reduced the stall surge (even deeper than half would be better). Parachutes 101.

OLopez

Dec 15, 2016, 11:31 AM
Post #12 of 34 (2819 views)
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Re: [Zebu] And they say stupid has an absolute low... [In reply to] Can't Post

Zebu wrote:

He popped both toggles, immediately let one up and while burying the other. (...)one side stalls while the other surges

Aha, that's the bit of the puzzle i was missing. I was only looking at the toggle whipping and didn't really consider the surging from popping the toggles. It all makes sense now. Smile

OLopez

Dec 15, 2016, 11:39 AM
Post #13 of 34 (2811 views)
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Re: [Fledgling] And they say stupid has an absolute low... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Now you have :-) Probably wouldn't have happened if the canopy was at maximum airspeed. Like I said it is more likely when people are trying to maneuver from deep brakes and take one side of their canopy into a stall.

Yes, i can get my canopy to do a dirty helico doing that, and before i turned into a risers person when practising avoidance i'd stab the brakes before letting a toggle, which is effectively the same.

It was the apparent "simply yarding on a toggle from full flight" that didn't quite make sense to me to provide that response from the canopy, but yes, with low airspeed right after deployment and the surge from releasing the toggles i can see how that will work.

wasatchrider

Dec 15, 2016, 12:23 PM
Post #14 of 34 (2782 views)
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Re: [Fledgling] And they say stupid has an absolute low... [In reply to] Can't Post

yes I meant a permanent stretch I know they stretch on openings but then go back to spec.
Sliders that rub on lines over time heats up the lines and shrinks the lines.
I've just never seen a lines set out of trim from being to long.

Fledgling

Dec 15, 2016, 4:25 PM
Post #15 of 34 (2668 views)
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Re: [wasatchrider] And they say stupid has an absolute low... [In reply to] Can't Post

wasatchrider wrote:
Sliders that rub on lines over time heats up the lines and shrinks the lines.
Really only a concern with Spectra/Dyneema line which is made of polyethylene a.k.a. plastic. Dacron is made from polyester. I don't have numbers but it doesn't shrink in the same fashion as Spectra. Vectran isn't gonna be bothered by your slider at all, I have seen multiple slider grommets worn through by Vectran lines.

wasatchrider wrote:
I've just never seen a lines set out of trim from being to long.
It happens. In reality though, on massive BASE canopies, you would probably never notice trim issues.

REDAKTOR

Dec 19, 2016, 5:21 AM
Post #16 of 34 (2220 views)
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Re: [Fledgling] And they say stupid has an absolute low... [In reply to] Can't Post

Fledgling wrote:
It happens. In reality though, on massive BASE canopies, you would probably never notice trim issues.
Oh but you doSmile
I've seen it on 2 different canopies, both with 300+ jumps on a single lineset. Easiest to notice during short slider down jumps, with DBS. First the vertical sink rate noticeably increases before you poop the toggles, that eventually the canopy stalls on deployment. Remedy by using shallower brake settings if you can't reline right away.

Fledgling

Dec 19, 2016, 5:43 AM
Post #17 of 34 (2206 views)
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Re: [REDAKTOR] And they say stupid has an absolute low... [In reply to] Can't Post

REDAKTOR wrote:
I've seen it on 2 different canopies, both with 300+ jumps on a single lineset.
What colour Dacron, white or dyed? Canopy size? Jumper weight?

REDAKTOR wrote:
Easiest to notice during short slider down jumps, with DBS. First the vertical sink rate noticeably increases before you poop the toggles, that eventually the canopy stalls on deployment.
Makes sense. Stalling on opening makes me poop my toggles too Smile Also if the A-lines stretch out it will deform the most important part of the airfoil.

REDAKTOR

Dec 19, 2016, 6:10 AM
Post #18 of 34 (2186 views)
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Re: [Fledgling] And they say stupid has an absolute low... [In reply to] Can't Post

Fledgling wrote:
What colour Dacron, white or dyed? Canopy size? Jumper weight?
White. Troll DW 280 and 265, about 80 kilos flight weight.

wasatchrider

Dec 19, 2016, 9:58 AM
Post #19 of 34 (2109 views)
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Re: [REDAKTOR] And they say stupid has an absolute low... [In reply to] Can't Post

I put about 700 jumps on my blackjack before relining it and never noticed a difference in the opening but I don't have my brakes set close to stall

REDAKTOR

Dec 22, 2016, 12:11 AM
Post #20 of 34 (1635 views)
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Re: [wasatchrider] And they say stupid has an absolute low... [In reply to] Can't Post

wasatchrider wrote:
but I don't have my brakes set close to stall
Any particular reason for doing that on solid SD?

wasatchrider

Dec 22, 2016, 6:58 AM
Post #21 of 34 (1531 views)
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Re: [REDAKTOR] And they say stupid has an absolute low... [In reply to] Can't Post

REDAKTOR wrote:
wasatchrider wrote:
but I don't have my brakes set close to stall
Any particular reason for doing that on solid SD?

Yes. Originally about 6 years ago I had an hour long conversation with Martin Tilley about brake settings for the black jack I was ordering. We went over weights and setting and theories. The short of it is that if you have a little bit of forward speed the faster you are going to be able to turn the canopy around.
After years of jumping and testing and a few sd 180s on cliffs I have never had a problem turning them around down to go and throw delays.
Im a toggle guy and quick on reactions.
Might not be the best option for newer jumpers or riser guys.
This is my personal preference.
I jump my new outlaw in shallow brakes on sd jumps because I feel they are set too deep in deep brakes.
Any questions feel free to pm me

TomAiello

Dec 22, 2016, 2:23 PM
Post #22 of 34 (1410 views)
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Re: [wasatchrider] And they say stupid has an absolute low... [In reply to] Can't Post

wasatchrider wrote:
The short of it is that if you have a little bit of forward speed the faster you are going to be able to turn the canopy around.

Can you definite "faster" as you are using it in this context?

Fewer seconds of time elapsed?

wasatchrider

Dec 22, 2016, 3:33 PM
Post #23 of 34 (1367 views)
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Re: [TomAiello] And they say stupid has an absolute low... [In reply to] Can't Post

TomAiello wrote:
wasatchrider wrote:
The short of it is that if you have a little bit of forward speed the faster you are going to be able to turn the canopy around.

Can you definite "faster" as you are using it in this context?

Fewer seconds of time elapsed?

yes less elapsed time.

platypii

Dec 22, 2016, 3:50 PM
Post #24 of 34 (1361 views)
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Re: [wasatchrider] And they say stupid has an absolute low... [In reply to] Can't Post

Wouldn't the more important metric be to minimize distance traveled, while maximizing time to impact?

I've recently heard multiple people advocating the use of shallow brakes on solid slider down objects, and would like to understand the reasoning.

TomAiello

Dec 22, 2016, 5:27 PM
Post #25 of 34 (1327 views)
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Re: [platypii] And they say stupid has an absolute low... [In reply to] Can't Post

If wind is moving you toward the object strike, executing the required degrees of heading correction in the minimum elapsed time would be critical.

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