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dan_inagap
Sep 30, 2012, 11:17 PM
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Brake line snap
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Yesterday a buddy of mine had his brake line snap at the deep break setting during a 3 second slider down jump.
It's a 310, the red Dacron broke not the white brake setting.
Everything was routed correctly and he only has 8 jumps on this canopy.
What would cause this ? Is it possible his canopy has a bad batch of Dacron and should be relined?
(This post was edited by dan_inagap on Oct 1, 2012, 1:12 PM)
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Hellis
Oct 1, 2012, 12:16 AM
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Re: [dan_inagap] Brake line snap
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Straight cut on the white line will cause higher damage on the brakeline.
But after only 8 jumps?
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maretus
Oct 1, 2012, 12:31 AM
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Re: [dan_inagap] Brake line snap
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I assume you have already contacted the manufacturer? Keep us posted what comes from there, sounds like a very bizarre thing given that there was no unusual action (salt water / barb wire / sharp rock / etc landings) during the previous 8 jumps
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dan_inagap
Oct 1, 2012, 3:40 AM
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one water landing in still waters, no salt.
I will keep this post updated with reports back from the manufacturer
(This post was edited by dan_inagap on Oct 1, 2012, 1:12 PM)
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Fledgling
Oct 1, 2012, 12:10 PM
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Re: [dan_inagap] Brake line snap
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dan_inagap wrote: What would cause this ? Is it possible his canopy has a bad batch of Dacron and should be relined?
Dyed dacron can do some funny things at totally random times. Something to do with the dying process makes it less reliable than the good old white stuff. Notice how no one pushes black line sets any more.
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dan_inagap
Oct 1, 2012, 1:08 PM
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Re: [Fledgling] Brake line snap
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That's interesting to know, but surely they adjust the breaking strength accordingly?
We have been in contact with the manufacturers and have given as much information as possible. I will update the forum with the findings when I hear back from them.
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Fledgling
Oct 1, 2012, 1:36 PM
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Re: [dan_inagap] Brake line snap
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dan_inagap wrote: That's interesting to know, but surely they adjust the breaking strength accordingly?
Nope. It seems to be pretty random but most likely apparent early on in a canopies life. I once seen a brake line stretch over 2 inches in a single jump. Confused the shit outta me when I tried to pack it.
Not saying that this is what caused your failure but I bet it's probably close. Alternatively whoever bartacked the brake line could have totally hacked up the line with the sewing machine, but I doubt that woulda made it through QC.
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dan_inagap
Oct 1, 2012, 2:38 PM
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Re: [Fledgling] Brake line snap
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I inspected the canopy fully when it arrived and I checked all the attachment points, cascades and bartacks thoroughly. I didn't notice any fraying at all and the line seemed as new to me.
I'm not a rigger so I may have missed something.
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Lonnie
Oct 1, 2012, 2:46 PM
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Re: [dan_inagap] Brake line snap
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Hey Dan, I had the same thing happen to me on a new canopy as well. If I remember correctly, it had maybe 10 jumps on it. Did a 5sec slider off jump and both lines broke. I had replacements sent and since changing them have now done a few hundred on that canopy with no issues
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dan_inagap
Oct 1, 2012, 3:04 PM
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Did you also replace the Centre C and D lines? I was thinking it may be a bad batch and all the red lines may be weak.
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Lonnie
Oct 1, 2012, 4:15 PM
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Re: [dan_inagap] Brake line snap
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No, just the brake lines
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Fledgling
Oct 2, 2012, 5:18 AM
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Re: [dan_inagap] Brake line snap
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dan_inagap wrote: Did you also replace the Centre C and D lines? I was thinking it may be a bad batch and all the red lines may be weak.
Brake lines are also under a lot more load on opening than just about any other line on the canopy (bar the center A+B). Center C and D lines will take no where nere the same load and shouldn't be a problem.
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dan_inagap
Oct 2, 2012, 6:09 AM
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Re: [Fledgling] Brake line snap
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Didn't know that either,
I assumed that because they are not load bearing lines, they don't carry much of the jumpers weight on opening.
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dride
Oct 2, 2012, 9:50 AM
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Re: [dan_inagap] Brake line snap
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This exact mal happened to me on a solid 4sec SD delay off 500ft guyed A. Better to take it lower for more room between the wires. I threw the good toggle (prob should have kept it  ) and just landed w/o incident on rears.
Vented Troll, about 80 jumps. My issue was the loop on risers were made of spectra line not dacron. I took it to PeteS for repair and he replaced with dacron, no issues after that even on deep delays.
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dan_inagap
Oct 2, 2012, 10:04 AM
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I'm actually not sure what the set loop of my buddy's risers have but it's very stiff and hard, could be 500lb dacron but it doesn't feel soft like dacron, the manufacturers asked about that so it must be a contributing factor.
He kept the one toggle and had a soft stand up landing, with one toggle and one riser.
(This post was edited by dan_inagap on Oct 2, 2012, 11:07 AM)
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hookitt
Oct 2, 2012, 3:18 PM
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Re: [dan_inagap] Brake line snap
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dan_inagap wrote: He kept the one toggle and had a soft stand up landing, with one toggle and one riser.
Excellent.
Never toss the second toggle. 1 toggle and 1 rear riser is so much easier to control and flare.
(This post was edited by hookitt on Oct 2, 2012, 3:19 PM)
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84n4n4
Oct 2, 2012, 4:38 PM
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Re: [dan_inagap] Brake line snap
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dan_inagap wrote: Did you also replace the Centre C and D lines? I was thinking it may be a bad batch and all the red lines may be weak.
Fledgling wrote: Something to do with the dying process makes it less reliable than the good old white stuff. Notice how no one pushes black line sets any more.
dride wrote: My issue was the loop on risers were made of spectra line not dacron.
i think they use spectra because its way more abrasion resistant and take a lot more beating than dacron, and its way easier to replace the lower brake lines when worn than the loops on the risers. i replace my lower break lines approximately every 100 jumps, on my slider down rig due to the brake setting splice is getting fucked, on my slider up rig because of abrasion.
a good solution for this issue would be using a slider for delays longer than 3s 
im looking forward on an update what the manufacturer has to say about it, also what the bar tack looks like... (can you post another highres picture with the bartack of the broken line?)
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RayLosli
Oct 2, 2012, 10:14 PM
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Ya that is kind of weird . It's the outside Red sheathing & not the Gut .
But If it was a hot knife sharp edge on the eyelet that is Fid . it would cut & wear from the inside & not the sheathing .
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RayLosli
Oct 2, 2012, 10:17 PM
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Re: [Fledgling] Brake line snap
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[Fledgling]
..." I once seen a brake line stretch over 2 inches in a single jump. Confused the shit outta me when I tried to pack it ".
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Might not have been pre-stretched .
I was taught & always told when you unroll ' New ' Break-Line . Before installation & all the measuring of the length, cutting & break-setting for eyelet .
Always stretch-out the break line & put it under some ( Pre Load ) pull weight . & let it sit & stretch for some time before putting on your canopy .
New Break Line will stretch inches in length . & a Pre-Streatching under a load for a time keeps the Break Line more uniform length when it's under opening shocks on the 1st few canopy openings .
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dan_inagap
Oct 2, 2012, 11:12 PM
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Re: [RayLosli] Brake line snap
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At Ray, His canopy is a BJ310, I think it's 900lb Dacron all around if I'm not mistaken, so chances are that it is from the same roll.
It ripped through 3-4 stitches and the line was definitely pre-tensioned, I watched him pack it.
The manufacturers have been great with lots of feedback and have already said they will send out replacement brake line-set. we are waiting on their final findings, but I can understand that it's hard to assess what has happened without the gear to look at.
(This post was edited by dan_inagap on Oct 2, 2012, 11:17 PM)
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Fledgling
Oct 3, 2012, 5:46 AM
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84n4n4 wrote: Fledgling wrote: Something to do with the dying process makes it less reliable than the good old white stuff. Notice how no one pushes black line sets any more. there has been a apex bulletin in 2008 regarding excessive linestrecht on their canopies with black lines, but i didnt hear of reduced strenght because of this before.
I too remember the Apex bulletin but did not mention it as it is not just an Apex problem. I have seen this problem on multiple canopies from 3 different manufacturers. It is a problem resulting from the dying process no matter the colour, and I wouldn't be surprised if all the manufacturers used the same supplier for their dacron.
Reduced strength? What do you call it then when a line is able to stretch inches in a single jump? If it is possible for it to be stretched that much it is easily capable of snapping too.
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Fledgling
Oct 3, 2012, 5:54 AM
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Re: [RayLosli] Brake line snap
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RayLosli wrote: [Fledgling] ..." I once seen a brake line stretch over 2 inches in a single jump. Confused the shit outta me when I tried to pack it ". . Might not have been pre-stretched . I was taught & always told when you unroll ' New ' Break-Line . Before installation & all the measuring of the length, cutting & break-setting for eyelet . Always stretch-out the break line & put it under some ( Pre Load ) pull weight . & let it sit & stretch for some time before putting on your canopy . New Break Line will stretch inches in length . & a Pre-Streatching under a load for a time keeps the Break Line more uniform length when it's under opening shocks on the 1st few canopy openings . .
I know that any type of line should be loaded to like 15lbs before measuring. Never heard of manufacturers excessively loading line for a period of time to pre-stretch it though.
I remember being told back when the dyed dacron started stretching that Apex were testing each new roll of line for excessive stretch before using it on line sets. This isn't to say they were following your suggested method.Do you know if manufacturers do this?
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Fledgling
Oct 3, 2012, 5:57 AM
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Re: [dan_inagap] Brake line snap
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dan_inagap wrote: It ripped through 3-4 stitches and the line was definitely pre-tensioned, I watched him pack it.
If you hadn't said this the picture does suggest that it maybe wasn't pre-tensioned after he set his brakes.
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dride
Oct 3, 2012, 9:19 AM
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"a good solution for this issue would be using a slider for delays longer than 3s"....
I agree with this however I absolutly hate SU openings in the 3-5sec range.....that "soft, mushy, feeling". And as I said my particular jump was a guyed A and opening lower was "safer" (landing area was HUGE open field, very little objects to hit)
FWIW: my loops on risers were very, very thin spectra line. Not sure if they were original or a replacment as I bought the rig used. The rigger agreed this thinner line acted as a "knifes edge" while under the loading process. I mention this to OP just as a possibility of something that could have been the issue with his friend's incident.
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RayLosli
Oct 3, 2012, 4:11 PM
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Re: [dan_inagap] Brake line snap
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I have seen a few snapped Break Lines before on Slider-down jumps . But the only thing that was the culprit was not proper routing, loop-ring-toggle .
& you say everything was routed right on the toggle stow . So It is all guessing after that .
But PIC.
shows the point of line break @ one of the biggest stress points on opening shock & that's the Break setting position .
So that say's a lot .
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