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Spiderbaby
Nov 28, 2011, 12:34 PM
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the top ones are going to poke holes in your canopy resulting in a spinning death malfunction!!
the bottom ones are available at ANY Home Depot and are better.
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TomAiello
Nov 28, 2011, 12:44 PM
Post #3 of 58
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They will work fine, and won't be any more likely to damage your canopy, but personally I find the second type easier to use.
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Spiderbaby
Nov 28, 2011, 12:48 PM
Post #4 of 58
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TomAiello wrote: They will work fine, and won't be any more likely to damage your canopy, but personally I find the second type easier to use.
that's actually what I meant to say.
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nickfrey
Nov 28, 2011, 7:18 PM
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I actually borrowed a canopy for a little while and the owner used/loaned me the same plastic clamps. You could definitely tell where he had been clamping the canopy. There where little micro abrasions and holes all over the clamp points. New and used with care I'm sure you'll be fine, but clamps tend to get tossed around and it was the light bits of damage to the clamps that was snagging the holes in the material.
Fine in a pinch, but I would get the Metal/rubber ones when you get a chance.
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TomAiello
Nov 28, 2011, 8:15 PM
Post #6 of 58
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nickfrey wrote: I actually borrowed a canopy for a little while and the owner used/loaned me the same plastic clamps. You could definitely tell where he had been clamping the canopy. There where little micro abrasions and holes all over the clamp points. New and used with care I'm sure you'll be fine, but clamps tend to get tossed around and it was the light bits of damage to the clamps that was snagging the holes in the material. Fine in a pinch, but I would get the Metal/rubber ones when you get a chance.
The metal ones will do that too, especially if you get the cheap ones and wear through the rubber caps, which exposes a metal edge that can tear at your canopy.
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Indyoshi
Nov 28, 2011, 9:04 PM
Post #7 of 58
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rather than clamping the fabric, I just clamp the tabs right at the canopy...
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460
Nov 29, 2011, 1:29 AM
Post #9 of 58
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never buy clamps that are too small. they can be forgotten in the packjob. it happened to me once prior to a building jump and i counted my tools, realizing one was missing. i left it on the canopy above the a-lines. count your tools. among newbies, realize that serious riggers add neon colored flags to every tool used, to minimize rigging mistakes.
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blitzkrieg
Nov 29, 2011, 5:15 AM
Post #10 of 58
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or, just don't use clamps.
there like crutches, they only help when something is broken.
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gauleyguide
Nov 29, 2011, 8:54 AM
Post #11 of 58
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 It's fun to pick up one of your friends clamps and wait till he unpacks and say 'oh, here it is.'
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darkvoid
Nov 29, 2011, 10:11 AM
Post #12 of 58
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From my experience I would say your best bet would be these.
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OuttaBounZ
Nov 29, 2011, 10:19 AM
Post #13 of 58
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These work well too.
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TomAiello
Nov 29, 2011, 11:30 AM
Post #14 of 58
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Indyoshi wrote: rather than clamping the fabric, I just clamp the tabs right at the canopy...
I find that the tabs can easily slip out of the clamp if you use the clamp as a handle to tension the lines. For this reason I prefer to sink the clamp as deeply as possible onto the fabric itself.
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TomAiello
Nov 29, 2011, 11:34 AM
Post #15 of 58
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blitzkrieg wrote: or, just don't use clamps. there like crutches, they only help when something is broken.
Human beings use tools to complete tasks for a number of reason. The tools can make the task easier, or faster, or more consistent, as just a few examples.
I can easily pack with no tools at all (that's how I first learned). But I prefer to use tools for the same reason I prefer to use a hammer when driving a nail--it makes the task faster, easier and more accurate.
I frequently encounter jumpers who seem to think that packing without tools is some sort of test of their masculinity, as if the only tools a _real_ man would need are his enormous genitals. I find this rather silly, but perhaps that's because I'm not man enough to understand.
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blitzkrieg
Nov 29, 2011, 11:48 AM
Post #16 of 58
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TomAiello wrote: I can easily pack with no tools at all (that's how I first learned). But I prefer to use tools for the same reason I prefer to use a hammer when driving a nail--it makes the task faster, easier and more accurate.
you say prefer. it is simply a preference.
but i don't see anyone packing with clamps doing it faster or easier than someone who is proficient at packing without them.
my point is, if you learn to pack without clamps proficiently... you will never NEED clamps, as they are unnecessary. also, you'll never find yourself on an object with a dumped packjob saying, "damn, i don't have any clamps, guess i'll have to climb down".
has nothing to do with masculinity for me. it's just simplicity. i don't need to pack an extra suitcase full of tools like some people choose to. but, to each their own.
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Indyoshi
Nov 29, 2011, 11:49 AM
Post #17 of 58
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I haven't had any big issues with clamps slipping. And I do use them for line tension. But when I pull the clamp for line tension I grab the fabric right in front of the clamp or pinch the side of the clamp that pinches it tighter rather than grabbing the handles that open the clamp... No issues so far doing this
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jtholmes
Nov 29, 2011, 9:10 PM
Post #18 of 58
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Tom: your quote "I prefer to use a hammer when driving a nail--it makes the task faster, easier and more accurate."
this is a ridiculous comparison and inaccurate metaphor. One can't drive a nail with bare hands, a tool is a necessity. This is not the case with parachute packing.
Ours are completely contrasting philosophies when it comes to BASE jumping. I prefer to keep things as absolutely simple as possible. Less to mess up. less to try to remember.
Yours is the most excessively complex and over-thought pack job with many many unnecessary tools.
Similarly, I see your students over thinking the parachute flying part too.
I am sorry for being critical.
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Ajunkie
Nov 29, 2011, 10:10 PM
Post #19 of 58
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TomAiello wrote: Indyoshi wrote: rather than clamping the fabric, I just clamp the tabs right at the canopy... I find that the tabs can easily slip out of the clamp if you use the clamp as a handle to tension the lines. For this reason I prefer to sink the clamp as deeply as possible onto the fabric itself.
If you use the clamp as a handle to tension the lines, just simply reach a littler further down and grab the fabric just past the clamp if the clamp is on the tabs.
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460
Nov 29, 2011, 10:42 PM
Post #20 of 58
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JT, it's always good to hear your thoughts. i saw Tom pack with 8 clamps and i thought man, that's a recipe for disaster for anyone who packs in poor lighting or might be fatigued, drunk, distracted, etc. which makes me think, i wonder if there are any base fatalities from leaving a clamp in the pack job. I agree, simplicity is the key to performing well in any endeavor. i could pack without clamps in really dry environments with moderate winds, but i was only able to do this after working semi-periodically with a master rigger at his loft in houston for 2 years. for a long time, i just used 2 large clamps when i was packing uncurrent. watching a good packer is like watching a las vegas black jack dealer or a seasoned magician. it only works with frequent practice.
you know, it's interesting that i've made fundamental rigging mistakes after all my so-called experience. it's frightening considering what type of mistakes a newbie would make.
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TomAiello
Nov 30, 2011, 8:51 AM
Post #21 of 58
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blitzkrieg wrote: ...i don't see anyone packing with clamps doing it faster or easier than someone who is proficient at packing without them.
I am proficient at packing with or without clamps, and with or without a whole set of other tools.
I prefer to pack with about 5 clamps depending on canopy size (and however many pull up cords I need to close the rig). I find it faster and easier that way.
I teach students a pack job with a set of other tools, including line tensioners, because in my experience it is easier for a new packer to get a good pack job by using those tools. I also prefer this because in my experience it is easiest to learn to pack with the tools, and then remove the tools from your packing technique as you gain experience.
The students I've seen trying to learn a no-tools pack job fro the beginning (and I was one of them a long time ago) are almost alway overwhelmed by the fabric management issues and end up with substantially worse pack jobs than students using the tools. In almost every case that I've worked with students trying a no-tool pack job, after we've used tools, they opt to use the tools because they can control the pack job more easily that way. After they are comfortable packing, the majority of them scale back their tool use to just a set of clamps (between 4 and 6 usually), and whatever pull-up cords are appropriate for their rig.
I sometimes see experienced jumpers who are "mentoring" new jumpers and seem to enjoy making things harder for the students (by, for example, insisting that they pack with no tools), when the student would learn faster and more easily by using instructional aids in the learning process. This strikes me as very silly, as the point of instruction ought to be to convey information and skills in the most efficient manner.
(This post was edited by TomAiello on Nov 30, 2011, 9:00 AM)
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Spiderbaby
Nov 30, 2011, 9:31 AM
Post #22 of 58
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jtholmes wrote: Tom: your quote "I prefer to use a hammer when driving a nail--it makes the task faster, easier and more accurate." this is a ridiculous comparison and inaccurate metaphor. One can't drive a nail with bare hands, a tool is a necessity. This is not the case with parachute packing. Ours are completely contrasting philosophies when it comes to BASE jumping. I prefer to keep things as absolutely simple as possible. Less to mess up. less to try to remember. Yours is the most excessively complex and over-thought pack job with many many unnecessary tools. Similarly, I see your students over thinking the parachute flying part too. I am sorry for being critical.
Fully agree, and not sorry.
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nickfrey
Dec 1, 2011, 12:23 AM
Post #23 of 58
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TomAiello wrote: blitzkrieg wrote: ...i don't see anyone packing with clamps doing it faster or easier than someone who is proficient at packing without them. (and however many pull up cords I need to close the rig).
Pull up cordS as in more then one... Your gonna have to explain that one to me. You can only pull on one at a time anyway???
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TomAiello
Dec 1, 2011, 6:01 AM
Post #24 of 58
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nickfrey wrote: Pull up cordS as in more then one... Your gonna have to explain that one to me. You can only pull on one at a time anyway???
I leave the pull up cords in the loops until I am satisfied with how the pack job is sitting in the container. I have accidentally popped a pin once (and seen several other people do it as well) while shifting the rig around (I lifted the rig up and discovered I had my foot on the bridle). It takes less effort to fix that mistake if I still have the pull-up cord in place (because then the pack job hasn't fallen out onto the ground).
Also, I find it less disruptive to the pack job if I insert the pull-up cords before I position the canopy into the pack tray, because that way I am not digging under the packed canopy to find the closing loops. It's simpler to do this if I use two pull-up cords.
(This post was edited by TomAiello on Dec 1, 2011, 6:02 AM)
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nickfrey
Dec 1, 2011, 5:59 PM
Post #25 of 58
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Now I see how people have left pull up cords in the loops.
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