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yaface
Oct 30, 2011, 7:19 AM
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Canopy size, help me clear this up
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Well another new guy, ill skip the introduction but ill provide a brief background to my question. In the future iam looking to purchase a BASE canopy to practice on before a FJC, my question is what size? I have read a few articles mentioning wing loading around .7 to .8, depending on landing area ect. Though also ive read that the easiest was is to add 100lbs to your current exit weight and work it out from there. This has me confused, iam let say 107kgs exit weight, so according to the wingloading calculator (235lbs, with .7 w/load) means a canopy size of 335sq/ft.adding the 100lbs, should be around 470sq/ft. dont get me wrong i could lose a few kilos, but iam not exactly fat either. height is around 6'1 ish,
set me straight, flame away
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gauleyguide
Oct 30, 2011, 7:37 AM
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Re: [yaface] Canopy size, help me clear this up
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If you weigh 235 lbs, then you need to get a hot air baloon. Just kidding, you did say flame away
yes, add 100 pounds to your weight, that would give you a 335 sq/ft canopy.
Lose weight and research the manufactures web sites for the biggest canopy you can find. I would lose weight. Big canopies are heavy and take a bit longer to come out and open.
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jools
Oct 30, 2011, 8:35 AM
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Re: [yaface] Canopy size, help me clear this up
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You are not adding 100lbs you are adding 100 to your weight in Lbs to make it into a number that represents the SQFT you need.
Naked weight in kg x 2.2 to turn in to Lbs.
so 107 x 2.2= 235lb +100 = 335.
So if your NAKED weight is 107kg you should get a canopy 335sqft
and quit eating so many burgers.
Laters
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OuttaBounZ
Oct 30, 2011, 9:02 AM
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Re: [yaface] Canopy size, help me clear this up
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I'm 200 lbs naked weight and jump a 260 and it serves me well on all jumps. A 280 would be fine too. If you go to big it becomes a pain in the ass. Think about it, more nylon, more weight, more time, more variables. I think the trend of going huge has gotten just a bit out of hand, however, I had a pretty old school mentor who focused more on actual canopy skills.
Decide what kind of jumps you are going to do (how low will you freefall, is going stowed important, etc.) and get something manageable. You have to hike it and you have to learn it's characteristics. But personally, I think a tandem canopy is a tandem canopy, even if it is made for BASE. Do you want to fly a boat or a parachute?
A BASE canopy is just a tool, it doesn't make you a better canopy pilot IMO. I've never looked at a jump and said, "man, I wish I had a lower wing loading." I like a canopy I can fly fast and shut it down when I need to shut it down. Larger means slower in every way, including correcting heading (if I'm wrong on that I'll take my lashings with a smile).
Goodluck
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TomAiello
Oct 30, 2011, 10:24 AM
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Re: [yaface] Canopy size, help me clear this up
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I'd recommend a canopy in the 310 size range. Troll 305, Blackjack/Ace 310, Flik 308, etc.
You might step up to the next size (Flik 353), but that will greatly limit your canopy choices (most manufacturers don't make them that big) and the inflation on the supersize Flik isn't the best, just because there is so much fabric up there.
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jonmurrell
Nov 1, 2011, 10:59 AM
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Re: [OuttaBounZ] Canopy size, help me clear this up
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OuttaBounZ wrote: I've never looked at a jump and said, "man, I wish I had a lower wing loading." I like a canopy I can fly fast and shut it down when I need to shut it down. Larger means slower in every way, including correcting heading.
I disagree so much with that I had to post... I had a Troll 265 and I had that thought numerous times, especially on my first low jumps landing at 7000' MSL. I can turn away just as quickly under a 305 as I could on a 265 (and somehow not get nearly as close to the object either) so my 265 now belongs to another jumper. One day you'll drop a toggle, unstow your breaks incorrectly or misjudge a landing and that fast canopy won't forgive or even let you unfuck yourself. From 150' I have ten seconds under canopy even when I'm turning and sinking to a tiny LZ. How about you?
OuttaBounZ wrote: Think about it, more nylon, more weight, more time, more variables.
Hahaha! Is more altitude a bad thing? That certainly affords more time and more variables to your jump as well... so the rig weighs another three pounds, who cares. I've never opened and immediately had the thought: "man, this canopy is so slow! I wish I could fly this thing faster!"
fyi: I'm 6'7" and 215 pounds.
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vid666
Nov 1, 2011, 11:05 AM
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Re: [jonmurrell] Canopy size, help me clear this up
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jonmurrell wrote: OuttaBounZ wrote: I've never looked at a jump and said, "man, I wish I had a lower wing loading." I like a canopy I can fly fast and shut it down when I need to shut it down. Larger means slower in every way, including correcting heading. I disagree so much with that I had to post... I had a Troll 265 and I had that thought numerous times, especially on my first low jumps landing at 7000' MSL. I can turn away just as quickly under a 305 as I could on a 265 (and somehow not get nearly as close to the object either) so my 265 now belongs to another jumper. One day you'll drop a toggle, unstow your breaks incorrectly or misjudge a landing and that fast canopy won't forgive or even let you unfuck yourself. From 150' I have ten seconds under canopy even when I'm turning and sinking to a tiny LZ. How about you?.
I agree wholeheartedly.
an advice to go with a smaller canopy comes from someone who has shit for brains or only jumps tall terminal stuff with huge landing areas.
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BIRDDOCTOR
Nov 1, 2011, 11:20 AM
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Re: [jonmurrell] Canopy size, help me clear this up
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fyi: I'm 6'7" and 215 pounds.
I hear if you pay him enough you can jump off of him for your "A". :)
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OuttaBounZ
Nov 1, 2011, 3:00 PM
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Re: [jonmurrell] Canopy size, help me clear this up
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I wasn't recomending he jump a 260. But my point was that I think any wing loading below .8 is pretty nice.
As far as flying fast, I like it, and I can fly plenty slow when I feel it is necessary.
I've never opened at 7000' on a BASE jump, so whatever.
And I think 3 pounds subtracted from the drag of a 42" pilot is enough to make a bit of a difference on low objects, but you're right, not that much. And I don't get that low, so I was mearly going by facts.
As you already know, exit weight has nothing to do with how fast your canopy falls away from your pilot chute. But the weight of your canopy does. Also, I'm sure you are a better canopy pilot than I, and I'm sure you lose less altitude than I when correcting heading since you have a slightly lower wing loading, more skill, and more experience. But it is a fact that, if we are talking about opening height, if we both pitch the same size pilot chute at the same time, the larger canopy will take longer to extract, inflate, and maybe even pressurize. Why would you argue that?
I don't want to sound like an expert, but you called me out making it sound like I implied something that wasn't meant to be implied.
And Vid666, I like you. I think you're a pretty cool guy from what I know of you. And I'm not sure if you are implying that I have shit for brains or not, but it kind of sounds like it. Really?
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TomAiello
Nov 1, 2011, 5:48 PM
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Re: [OuttaBounZ] Canopy size, help me clear this up
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OuttaBounZ wrote: ...I'm sure you lose less altitude than I when correcting heading since you have a slightly lower wing loading...
Can you explain how wing loading would effect altitude loss on heading correction?
I don't really follow what you are saying there.
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yaface
Nov 1, 2011, 8:52 PM
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Re: [yaface] Canopy size, help me clear this up
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Thanks for the replies everyone, much to think in the future. ill keep you posted on the outcome!
One other thing, does anyone have any comparison videos of canopies opening? in a range of sizes right up to 310 ish?
I live in Australia to give you an idea of the types of jumps are around ;)
Cheers
(This post was edited by yaface on Nov 1, 2011, 8:58 PM)
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GreenMachine
Nov 1, 2011, 8:57 PM
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I weigh ~185 pounds and my clothes and gear
probably weigh about 25 pounds. I have BASE
jumped wings from 240 to 300.
The low end is fine for wide open spaces and
tall antennas but for the dirty low or in urban
We ALL want a little more nylon because it
makes things happen just a little bit slower
which equals more time.
I have ground video of 3 guys doing a load
where each guy did a go & throw and you
can clearly see the 240ish opened highest,
the 285 opened the lowest and the 265 was
right in the middle.
edited to remove  post
(This post was edited by GreenMachine on Nov 2, 2011, 6:18 AM)
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uer16
Nov 2, 2011, 2:25 AM
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Re: [TomAiello] Canopy size, help me clear this up
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Did anyone mention that the 305 troll is actually 322 by PIA specs. I'm still confused by all of this. I mean, wouldn't the wing loading on a 308 flik, and a 305 troll be completely different? Can somebody educate me The locals all jump trolls, but don't seem to know this.
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TomAiello
Nov 2, 2011, 6:28 AM
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Re: [yaface] Canopy size, help me clear this up
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yaface wrote: One other thing, does anyone have any comparison videos of canopies opening? in a range of sizes right up to 310 ish?
I have literally thousands of slider down openings on video from filming FJC's. Any specific canopies you are interested in?
I'm teaching through Monday of next week, but after that I might be able to find some time to dig through the video and see if I can find some shots of specific openings.
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FrankieB
Nov 2, 2011, 8:25 AM
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Re: [uer16] Canopy size, help me clear this up
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I believe the difference is PIA spec canopies are measured by the topskin like the Flik.
It's my understanding that the Troll, and other Atair canopies are measured by the bottom skin. My 265 Troll is PIA spec 282 sq. ft. I think that Stane's reasoning for this is that the bottom skin measurement is a better representation of a flying canopy. I hope that helps. Take Care
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OuttaBounZ
Nov 2, 2011, 9:07 AM
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Re: [TomAiello] Canopy size, help me clear this up
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TomAiello wrote: OuttaBounZ wrote: ...I'm sure you lose less altitude than I when correcting heading since you have a slightly lower wing loading... Can you explain how wing loading would effect altitude loss on heading correction? I don't really follow what you are saying there.
Sure, Tom. (I have to be brief because of a crying baby who is as sick of Thomas the Train as I am)
As any canopy pilot has learned (from paragliders to swoopers) that weighting a harness is more than 50% of a good turn. By weighting the left side while pulling on the right toggle you make a much flatter turn resulting in less dive. A larger canopy like a bigger BASE canopy, student sky canopy, 16m speedwing, full size paraglider, etc. (is going to be easier to control the amount of dive from such turns.
Even assuming most heading are corrected on risers, this still makes sense to me. Wing loading still has something to do with sink rate, does it not? A 60 lb sack of dog food will fall a lot slower under a 240 sq/ft canopy than a 200 lb stud muffin like yours truly, no?
Anyway, I have no problem being told I'm wrong, I actually prefer it. And rarely do I have a serious conversation on these boards because I know where it usually leads. But I guess I started it, so now I'm left trying to defend my words (which all make sense in my head )
Cheers!
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jools
Nov 2, 2011, 9:15 AM
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Re: [yaface] Canopy size, help me clear this up
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I have a troll 265 and a troll 285, I am 6'3 and around 90kg.
The 265 was custom for me and the brakes are right on the stall point, in fact I have opened in a stall on many occasions.
The 285 I bought 2nd hand and have not adjusted the brakes as they were close enough.
Sub 110ft I notice a huge difference in the opening and pressurisation time of the bigger canopy (only 1 size up). Even though the smaller canopy opens on the stall point I get considerably softer landings.
Above 120ft I don't really notice any difference in the landings and time wise it is not as critical.
Please note these were all static lines so no difference in deployment.
Laters
Julian
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jonmurrell
Nov 2, 2011, 10:47 AM
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Re: [OuttaBounZ] Canopy size, help me clear this up
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Hey, I'm no expert either. Given everything else being the same, the smaller canopy will of course open faster since it's got shorter lines, smaller dimensions, and less volume to inflate... but once you're open marginally higher, a smaller canopy will fly considerably faster and have a higher sink rate in most turns due to the higher loading. Altitude = time and when you're descending that much faster you lose the extra time gained from your smaller opening height and then some. So on our jump you'll open and be flying higher, but you'll be on the ground first and with more energy to burn too.
Sub 110! That's ridiculous! At those heights I bet the extra distance to line stretch matters! Nothing below 130 for me, thanks!
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OuttaBounZ
Nov 2, 2011, 11:33 AM
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Re: [jonmurrell] Canopy size, help me clear this up
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will put. t I see the contradictions in my previous statements.
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JMCC
Dec 21, 2011, 4:10 AM
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Re:Canopy size, help me clear this up
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Hi,
hope you dont mind if I add another question to this thread but it seemed like a sensible place rather than clogging up the forum with another thread.
I am in the same position, looking at canopies to practice on before even thinking about a 1st jump. My question is about types of canopies, over the past few months I have been doing a lot of reading about everything i can and there is a lot information out there about gear including pros and cons but very little about what is recommended for a newbie.
What are the key things in your oppinions I should be looking for in terms of canopies at my level? Is it a case of keep it simple? Does it depend greatly on personal prefrences?
Any advice greatfully recieved.
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seekfun
Dec 21, 2011, 6:18 AM
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Re: [JMCC] Re:Canopy size, help me clear this up
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JMCC,
Check out WWARPED's post in this thread.
~ Chris
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JMCC
Dec 21, 2011, 6:30 AM
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Re: [seekfun] Re:Canopy size, help me clear this up
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seekfun wrote: JMCC, Check out WWARPED's post in this thread. ~ Chris
Spot on, cheers Chris
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GreenMachine
Dec 21, 2011, 6:40 AM
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7 cells
F111 nylon
Dacron lines
Big & Square
.7ish Wing Loading
As for an exact make and model,
like wwarped said, not important.
Every BASE specific wing I have
jumped worked as advertised.
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JMCC
Dec 21, 2011, 7:24 AM
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Re: [GreenMachine] Newbie BASE Wings
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Cheers @GreenMachine,
Whats the general view on 2nd hand canopies in BASE? I have had 2 2nd hand skydive rigs and they have been awesome. But I imagine its likely to be diffrent in BASE.
Is it easy to pack a base canopy into my container (Mirage) in a way that i would get used to its opening characteristics? Do DZ's often have issues about people jumping base canopies or are they fairly cool about it?
Cheers
Cubs
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seekfun
Dec 21, 2011, 8:07 AM
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JMCC,
The biggest issue you'll likely face with getting a BASE canopy in your Mirage is the size of the canopy. Unless you're jumping a larger sport canopy, you may not be able to squeeze a BASE canopy in your container.
That said, if the container can accommodate your BASE canopy, there's no reason whatsoever not to start putting some jumps on it. I would simply suggest that you get some guidance on rigging/packing it. CRW jumpers are probably a good source of guidance on the DZ for getting a big-ass BASE canopy to come out of your sport rig without ending up on the news. And don't forget your friendly neighborhood rigger.
All of this said, jumping your BASE canopy out of a sport container won't really give you a sense of its opening characteristics in a BASE environment. For one thing, you'll always be using a slider when you jump your BASE canopy with your sport rig. Also, in very general terms, your BASE canopy will come out of your BASE rig in a more consistent manner than it will come out of your sport rig.
Jumping your BASE canopy at the DZ is a great way to learn how to fly that canopy. But apart from that, you will still have many BASE-specific things to learn.
It's hard to answer the DZ question, as no two DZs are the same. But generally speaking, if you are using a TSO approved harness/container, and you have a TSO approved reserve, there shouldn't be any reason the DZ would frown on jumping a BASE canopy, so long as you can safely pack/deploy that canopy using the equipment you have. If the canopy is simply not going to fit safely in your Mirage, then a responsible DZO will say, "no". They don't want to be on the news, either.
If you can't get a BASE canopy in your Mirage, try doing the next best thing. Find someone on your DZ who has a big-ass 7-cell canopy. Ask 'em if you can put some jumps on it. Find out if your student program has student rigs with big-ass 7 cells. Or troll the classifieds and find yourself a harness/container/reserve that will fit your BASE canopy. And once you have it, hold on to it. It may be useful for demo jumps later on...
Sorry I rambled so much.
Cheers,
Chris
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