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High Ultimate
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matt002

Jul 26, 2011, 6:56 AM
Post #1 of 59 (15239 views)
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High Ultimate Can't Post

Is High Ultimate exit an acceptable exit in the Swiss Valley?
An exit that prevents the jumper frombeing able to see the airspace and weather conditions below and requires a very strong push and also good footing in order to clear a large underhung section, also located in a very busy and now high profile part of the valley. Does experience make it safe? Is it possible to nail the right exit 100% of the time?
I have never jumped it, I don't think there is an exceptable margin for error in that exit so have always stayed away, especially as there are 3 more exit points that offer pretty much the same altitude and are in the same area. It seems to me that every other person I meet has a horror story or a near miss from High Ultimate. Looking back over the past year, a higher percentage of incidents occur there than other exits in the valley, not supprising really but from a statistical point of view, the safety record of the valley could be easily improved if either a permanent ramp that actually fully clears the underhung section was installed, or jumping there is suspended. Is the closing of the valley to jumpers inevitable or can we do something other than just wait for it to happen?


(This post was edited by matt002 on Jul 26, 2011, 7:06 AM)

blitzkrieg

Jul 26, 2011, 10:40 AM
Post #2 of 59 (15084 views)
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Re: [matt002] High Ultimate [In reply to] Can't Post

it comes down simply to the fact that a large portion of jumpers (like people in general) are sheeple. they start out in the valley with the intention of playing conservatively. then suddenly they run into some other jumpers at yellow ocean that tell them everyone is heading to xxx jump and that they'll be fine. even though knowing they will be out of their comfort zone, they decide to follow the group rather than be isolated on a less technical jump to actually gain some skill and experience.

the reality is that the HU exit is a perfectly viable exit when proper conditions are present. you need relatively sure footing for the launch, but really no more so than any other exit. you also do not need some absurdly strong initial push. if the exit was wet it could make a slipping hazard, big surprise. i think the wall might just psych people out. it's really not a big deal to leap over. i've jumped it many times practically just walking over the edge. including jumping from further back to follow someone off on a two way.

granted, the lower is probably a safer exit point, but you do have to descend down a rope which could add another two minutes to your 5 min walk to the gear up area.Tongue

unfortunately there is no way to enforce personal responsibility.

JordanKilgore

Jul 26, 2011, 11:19 AM
Post #3 of 59 (15048 views)
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Re: [blitzkrieg] High Ultimate [In reply to] Can't Post

It would be nice if jumpers would stick to their personal skill level, and respect their own safety. Education and judgement are the key improvement points here... not trying to limit what exits can/cannot be jumped. The beauty of this sport is in the freedom to make choices for ourselves. I just wish that jumpers, especially those in the newer generation, would start to take this shit seriously. And as for the older, wiser, or luckier jumpers who have been around awhile: if you have something to teach, make a point of teaching. Tell the stories, take newer jumpers to safer exit points, and be a positive influence by sharing your experience. That will save lives, and help the image of BASE at the same time. make an actual effort to be a positive influence, and I guarantee you will earn more respect than by simply venting online about incompetence...ra ra ra.... whenever someone craters.
Play safe.
-JK

hjumper33
Moderator
Jul 26, 2011, 11:20 AM
Post #4 of 59 (15045 views)
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Re: [blitzkrieg] High Ultimate [In reply to] Can't Post

The jump is perfectly viable, and probably my favorite in the valley, as with many of the recent problems in the valley, if you aren't experienced, or confident with running exits where you need to clear some talus, then DONT JUMP. overconfidence and lack of experience kill!

JordanKilgore

Jul 26, 2011, 11:37 AM
Post #5 of 59 (15025 views)
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Re: [hjumper33] High Ultimate [In reply to] Can't Post

+1

matt002

Jul 26, 2011, 2:13 PM
Post #6 of 59 (14892 views)
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High Ultimate [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems that our only answer is to rail on the new guys and keep repeating the same pleas for more personal responsibilty when that approach has and will continue to have no effect on those that it most applies to, it seems out freedom to ruin ever chance we get is more important than keeping the valley open.

MarkusWyler

Jul 26, 2011, 2:14 PM
Post #7 of 59 (14891 views)
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Re: [matt002] High Ultimate [In reply to] Can't Post

"to see the airspace" --> Right!
March to October: High Ultimate and Ultimate are closed from 09.00-16.00 every day!
November to February - open all day! Sly

Check out our Stechelberg Rules:
http://www.basejumper.ch/...;id=19&Itemid=56

Thanks!

base570

May 11, 2013, 1:12 PM
Post #8 of 59 (13787 views)
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Re: [matt002] High Ultimate [In reply to] Can't Post

I was reading through the recent fatality on HU and wanted to see some videos with and without the ramp.
This one certainly got my attention!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_BJpN_SeXo

kipa

May 11, 2013, 3:10 PM
Post #9 of 59 (13704 views)
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Re: [base570] High Ultimate [In reply to] Can't Post

Considering about that video!! This was the first winter the ramp was there!! The ramp is still the same but now it is "much" lower so it starts more forward and there fore reaches "much" longer! On that video youŽll see that the two "side poles" comes maybe 5cm above the ramp. Looking the present videos youŽll notice they come more than meter above it !!!!!
It stil doesnŽt go over the positive part but is still sticking out more.
And again statistics: High ultimate was started to jump september 2009. First winter there wore no ramp first year it was there was 2010 when this video takes places. There has been 5 fatalities on Ultimate. One from lower and 4 from the ramp.... all with wingsuits

sky12345

May 11, 2013, 5:40 PM
Post #10 of 59 (13643 views)
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Re: [kipa] High Ultimate [In reply to] Can't Post

its either this exit is closed or fixed (ie ramp extended to be overhung) -- or the whole valley will be closed

5 deaths? read above paragraph again

and maybe rename it to "idiot's suicide" or smth like that to remove the lure of the words "high" and "ultimate"

is it physically possible to extend the ramp? (from engineering standpoitn) how much $$?? would those jumpers who pay SBA landing card fee mind extra $20-30 or so to make this exit safer?

Heat

May 12, 2013, 6:32 AM
Post #11 of 59 (13408 views)
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Re: [kipa] High Ultimate [In reply to] Can't Post

There is more to the story than the fatalities - Several people has struck the wall and, SOLELY out of pure luck, lived to tell the tale. I really like the exit but I've only jumped it in the summer without the ramp. It requires skill, commitment and must be approached with respect and caution - as with all base jumps! There is a clear red thread running through the deaths on that exit and we as jumpers need to get our heads fucking straight here. It's just too dumb and ridiculous to die in the same fashion as too many of our comrades has done there

almosupremecommander

May 12, 2013, 8:08 AM
Post #12 of 59 (13336 views)
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Re: [Heat] High Ultimate [In reply to] Can't Post

I lived to tell the tale. 2010 , no ramp, shit exit.I didn't clear the ledge at all. Head down impact with my arms above my head, I bounced off got stable immediately and carried on tracking for about 5 secs .I threw the pilot chute and as my arms go up to grab the risers I notice my right arm is snapped and hanging off at an angle both hands are torn wide open broken fingers . So I unzipped my jacket pocket, carefully put my right hand in it and steered a left hand pattern to the landing area for a nice plf breaks still set. Some morphine and a chopper flight. Blood all over me.
unfortunately the camera turned off just before exit.
So I just wanted to say I won't be jumping that fucking hillside again!!

weathergirl
UK Pro BASE
May 12, 2013, 8:38 AM
Post #13 of 59 (13297 views)
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Re: [almosupremecommander] High Ultimate [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Al,

I think pitching-with-broken-arm-after-cliffstrike beats my standing-on-a-ledge-with-dislocated-ankles.

Love your work...

Dave

almosupremecommander

May 12, 2013, 9:19 AM
Post #14 of 59 (13241 views)
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Re: [weathergirl] High Ultimate [In reply to] Can't Post

Tracking andbeing able to deploy with broken arms is part of what makes me a living legend. Oh and a huge scoop from the luck bucket.

garfjones

May 13, 2013, 10:14 AM
Post #15 of 59 (12802 views)
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Re: [almosupremecommander] High Ultimate [In reply to] Can't Post

Does anyone know when the ramp will be taken down for the summer?
With the rapid increase of new jumpers progressing onto wingsuits would it not be an idea to take it down sooner than later as peak season is only round the corner...

BigfcknG

May 14, 2013, 12:44 AM
Post #16 of 59 (12431 views)
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Re: [blitzkrieg] High Ultimate [In reply to] Can't Post

Your second paragraph sums it up perfectly blitzkrieg.. Yeah, the ledge and the fact you cant see over can be unsettling, but with the obvious prerequisites being confidence in your ability and experience, consistent exits, a good sub terminal track and proper footwear, it shouldn't be a problem.

GreenMachine

May 14, 2013, 4:59 AM
Post #17 of 59 (12317 views)
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. [In reply to] Can't Post

nevermind


(This post was edited by GreenMachine on May 14, 2013, 11:11 AM)

Mikki_ZH

May 14, 2013, 6:37 AM
Post #18 of 59 (12244 views)
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Re: [matt002] High Ultimate [In reply to] Can't Post

In the next couple of weeks the SBA will hold its annual meeting. During this meeting we will talk about the ramp and what the SBA's position is on this topic. Until then the SBA will not make an "official" statement.
As mentioned, the ramp was not set up by the SBA, it’s a private project. We do not own any exits in the valley, our only goals are to make jumping as save as possible and to keep jumping legal in Lauterbrunnen.
Opinions on this topic by SBA Members are private and do not necessarily reflect (until now) the SBAs view.

ironmule

May 14, 2013, 10:26 AM
Post #19 of 59 (12101 views)
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Re: [Mikki_ZH] High Ultimate [In reply to] Can't Post

Would a 3 feet longer ramp have saved few lives ?
If yes I believe a bigger platform should be built at the exit.

There is then a probability to see more people, including less experienced ones, trying that jump.
But if the jump is safer, would this be a problem ?
Can we assume a longer ramp would make this jump pretty much equal to High Nose in term of difficulty/risk ?
If yes, maybe this is the way to go.

Building a platform at the exit may be against original spirit, but here is Disneyland anyway and we are talking about saving lives.

PikeyBASE

May 14, 2013, 11:21 AM
Post #20 of 59 (12020 views)
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Re: [ironmule] High Ultimate [In reply to] Can't Post

I've never jumped in Switzerland so what do I know. But I imagine some of the allure of these jumps is the fact that you do in fact have to clear it.

maretus

May 14, 2013, 12:36 PM
Post #21 of 59 (11954 views)
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Re: [ironmule] High Ultimate [In reply to] Can't Post

ironmule wrote:
Would a 3 feet longer ramp have saved few lives ?
If yes I believe a bigger platform should be built at the exit.

Following MichiŽs post above, as a disclaimer, all below are my personal views. Nothing to do with my position in SBA or nothing to be taken as a "official statement" from the SBA.

Maybe a 3 feet longer ramp could have saved couple of lives. Could be. But for sure, 30 feet or 300feet ramp would be even safer. How about if we would just build a gigantic ramp over the whole valley so you could jump in the middle of it without any possibility of hitting anything. Or I have even a better idea still, how about coming up with some kind of metal thing which would have an engine on it. Kind of like moving ramp where you could jump from high above everything and make sure there is nothing below? Just to make it really safe.

Oh wait... But I think that has already been invented... It is called skydiving.

ironmule

May 14, 2013, 1:06 PM
Post #22 of 59 (11916 views)
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Re: [maretus] High Ultimate [In reply to] Can't Post

maretus wrote:
Oh wait... But I think that has already been invented... It is called skydiving.

I disagree. Skydiving already exists in the valley and it does not prevent people from dying @ HU. So my proposal works better.

MontBlanc

May 14, 2013, 1:29 PM
Post #23 of 59 (11879 views)
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Re: [maretus] High Ultimate [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Or I have even a better idea still, how about coming up with some kind of metal thing which would have an engine on it. Kind of like moving ramp where you could jump from high above everything and make sure there is nothing below? Just to make it really safe.

Oh wait... But I think that has already been invented... It is called skydiving.

+1

Destroy the f*cking ramp !

base283

May 14, 2013, 1:59 PM
Post #24 of 59 (11846 views)
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Re: [ironmule] High Ultimate [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe they could blast it out until it was overhung. No need for a ramp Tongue
take care,
space

maretus

May 14, 2013, 2:03 PM
Post #25 of 59 (11836 views)
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Re: [base283] High Ultimate [In reply to] Can't Post

This "ramp or no ramp" discussion has also been widely discussed in a reasonably closely neighbouring sport : http://climbing.about.com/...ng/a/ChippingDef.htm. Maybe we could learn from them and not go through this again in our own playground.

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