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base570

Jan 17, 2011, 12:58 AM
Post #1 of 76 (14499 views)
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NPS Discussion Can't Post

If we could sit down with the NPS and discuss our grievances openly, what would you talk about, clarify, demand etc.
What are the issues? What would you propose to rectify the poor relations currently in place? Please be specific and thorough.

I am working on a project and would like your input to see if I have missed anything.

thanks
570

base570

Jan 17, 2011, 11:27 AM
Post #2 of 76 (14362 views)
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Re: [base570] NPS Discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

If you have any references to court cases, that would be helpful too.

base428
Bridge Day Organizer
Jan 17, 2011, 12:29 PM
Post #3 of 76 (14329 views)
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Gosh, where to begin.....

What kind of project are you working on?

FYI: A few years ago, I set up a meeting with the head honchos at Yosemite. We were supposed to meet during their next visit to WashDC to discuss the state of BASE jumping in the park and what could change to make it legal. After waiting several months, Yosemite NPS wouldn't respond to email requests.

I have met numerous times with the New River Gorge rangers and superintendents in attempts to improve relations as well. Not sure how to change their minds because the systematic decades-long denials appear to be the norm. But, I'm all for working with them and continuing to talk to improve relations.

Personally, I don't think one poor man can change much with respect to BASE in our National Parks. However, one rich man or a thousand angry jumpers could change everything. BASE jumpers only rally a little when someone dies or gets tasered and that's usually a temporary fight.....


(This post was edited by base428 on Jan 17, 2011, 1:46 PM)

460

Jan 17, 2011, 12:45 PM
Post #4 of 76 (14320 views)
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Re: [base428] NPS Discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

they also rally if they get a ticket for an open container, such as leaving the Holiday Inn in the dust.

GreenMachine

Jan 17, 2011, 2:11 PM
Post #5 of 76 (14278 views)
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Re: [base570] NPS Discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

The only logical arguement I can think
is along the line of equal rights, using
the 14th amendment, 1964 civil rights
act, and the 1990 ADA as references.

WE are citizens, tax payers, voters,
and as such deserve equal access to
the commonly owned public good.

Tree's point about their perverse use
of Aerial Delivery is valid, seems a very
talented lawyer with a large budget could
challenge that precedent.

Sadly, rules & laws often fail to follow logic
so all of the above is probably just wishful
thinking and mental masturbation... but
thank you for your efforts and good luck!

hjumper33
Moderator
Jan 17, 2011, 2:16 PM
Post #6 of 76 (14275 views)
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Re: [base570] NPS Discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

The only issue that really got my dander up is when they tazed Ammon. By all accounts, he was standing there, not attempting to escape. Lets remember that this is a permitable activity, they just dont issue permits. It would be like tazing every person they find camping illegally in the park instead of asking them to leave.

Rangers and cops are very similar in my experience, a lot of them are pretty nice reasonable people, and a certain percentage got picked on when they were kids and are on a constant power trip.

psf

Jan 17, 2011, 3:07 PM
Post #7 of 76 (14238 views)
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Re: [hjumper33] NPS Discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

obviously jumping in the NPS system is legal-bridge day. They do allow the jumping to occur, with a special permit. A starting point could be to try and get open communication and have a very orderly/planned event with all the safety cushions that make the powers that be happy. Once that door is open, the envelope could get pressed to open more and more area's and relax rules.
Just a thought.

DAVE858

Jan 17, 2011, 3:14 PM
Post #8 of 76 (14231 views)
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Re: [base570] NPS Discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

What if it were accepted, how would it be controlled? How would a place like Yosemite regulate rules & safety standards? Would it even be worth it? How much would you be willing to put up with? I think if it ever were accepted in National Parks the hassle one would have to go through to apply for permits & god knows what else would be a much bigger pain in the ass than just finding away around all of that & wait for a full moon & the right winds...

wwarped
Moderator
Jan 17, 2011, 4:17 PM
Post #9 of 76 (14199 views)
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Re: [DAVE858] NPS Discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

+1

I really don't see opening up the NPS as the biggest obstacle... that would be keeping it open!

with the contentious relationship between some jumpers and the rangers, access will not be simple. if forced to open it back up, I fear the NP LEO's that will seize any chance to shut it down. keeping jumpers in line, somehow, will prove key. (and thus unlikely.)

robinheid

Jan 18, 2011, 8:54 AM
Post #10 of 76 (14038 views)
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Re: [base570] NPS Discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

base570 wrote:
If we could sit down with the NPS and discuss our grievances openly, what would you talk about, clarify, demand etc.
What are the issues? What would you propose to rectify the poor relations currently in place? Please be specific and thorough.

I am working on a project and would like your input to see if I have missed anything.

thanks
570


What you are missing is the magnitude of the following fundamental problems:

1) It is much easier, simpler, quicker and more enjoyable to buy a ticket to Europe and just go jump than it is to spend that time and money fighting with federal bureaucrats who either really, truly do not consider jumping in national parks to be an "appropriate" activity -- or they really, truly enjoy stomping on the rights of citizens who fall outside the defintion of herd animals.

2) The "total commitment" time frame of the average BASE jumping career is considerably shorter than a federal bureaucrat's career or the time frame necessary to achieve change in a federal bureaucracy.

3) It is too easy for individuals within the BASE jumping community who disagree with your project approach to sabotage that approach, thereby rendering moot all the time, money and heart you put into the issue, and leaving everything right where it was in the first place: at an impasse.

Best of luck with your project, but unless you figure out how to successfully address these fundamental problems, you are going nowhere.

44

Cool


(This post was edited by robinheid on Jan 18, 2011, 9:10 AM)

base570

Jan 18, 2011, 12:14 PM
Post #11 of 76 (13947 views)
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Re: [base570] NPS Discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for all the responses so far... please continue to think about and ad to this thread.

tree wrote:
I think that the primary issue that I have with the NPS is that there is in fact no laws that prohibit BASE jumping. They have used "Illegal Aerial Delivery" to go after base jumpers for decades when anyone can see that that law (passed in the 20's I believe) has nothing to do with BASE jumping.

Yes that is the big one. I have already addressed that in my process.

base428 wrote:
What kind of project are you working on?

FYI: A few years ago, I set up a meeting with the head honchos at Yosemite....After waiting several months, Yosemite NPS wouldn't respond to email requests.

I have met numerous times with the New River Gorge rangers and superintendents in attempts to improve relations as well....

Personally, I don't think one poor man can change much with respect to BASE in our National Parks.
I can't really go into details but I can say that it is nothing like what has been tried and the chances of their agreement are very high.
One problem I can see in your approach has been to wait for them to respond to you. They won't, as you have seen.
in your meetings with NRG officials what has been the biggest hurdle or roadblock that they are putting up?
Do you have the actual permit that is issued for Bridge Day? I would like to see it for reference of what it looks like, who signs it, what process it goes through, etc.
There is no way I'm going to believe that one man cannot change things... that is a defeatist attitude.

green wrote:
The only logical arguement I can think
is along the line of equal rights, using
the 14th amendment, 1964 civil rights
act, and the 1990 ADA as references.

WE are citizens, tax payers, voters,
and as such deserve equal access to
the commonly owned public good.

While that seems like a good argument on it's face, I don't think that is what will convince them or force their hand.... In fact that argument may be exactly why we have not made any progress.

hjumper33 wrote:
Lets remember that this is a permitable activity, they just dont issue permits.
Correct, it is permitable that is why I would like to see the Bridge Day permit.

psf wrote:
A starting point could be to try and get open communication and have a very orderly/planned event with all the safety cushions that make the powers that be happy.

What are some of the safety cushions that you think would help?

dave wrote:
What if it were accepted, how would it be controlled? How would a place like Yosemite regulate rules & safety standards? Would it even be worth it? How much would you be willing to put up with? I think if it ever were accepted in National Parks the hassle one would have to go through to apply for permits & god knows what else would be a much bigger pain in the ass than just finding away around all of that & wait for a full moon & the right winds...

I think you are right that controlling it would be difficult. The NPS would not be the correct 'person' to regulate and issue permits in my eyes. They do not have the knowledge to be able to make correct judgment calls on conditions, skill level etc. Do you think that a jumper run entity could do a better job and mitigate the risks? Similar to Bridge Day... although I don't think that BD is a good example of BASE jumpers regulating themselves, it's more of a carnival atmosphere.

robin wrote:
What you are missing is the magnitude of the following fundamental problems:

1) It is much easier, simpler, quicker and more enjoyable to buy a ticket to Europe and just go jump than it is to spend that time and money fighting with federal bureaucrats who either really, truly do not consider jumping in national parks to be an "appropriate" activity -- or they really, truly enjoy stomping on the rights of citizens who fall outside the defintion of herd animals.

2) The "total commitment" time frame of the average BASE jumping career is considerably shorter than a federal bureaucrat's career or the time frame necessary to achieve change in a federal bureaucracy.

3) It is too easy for individuals within the BASE jumping community who disagree with your project approach to sabotage that approach, thereby rendering moot all the time, money and heart you put into the issue, and leaving everything right where it was in the first place: at an impasse.

Best of luck with your project, but unless you figure out how to successfully address these fundamental problems, you are going nowhere.

1) You are right that it is much easier to go to Europe than to tackle the 'government'. I however enjoy a good fight and am not willing to allow them to dictate the terms in which I can enjoy my life. So I continue to explore my options.

2) I don't see how this argument has anything to do with it... Why does it have to be a single jumpers commitment? Why can't it be the communities commitment? Why can't one jumper change things?

3) It sounds as if you are holding a grudge against people you have dealt with in the past... It's unfortunate that we, as a community, can't work together on this and not let personal issues destroy the seemingly forward progress.



570

lowcountryBase

Jan 18, 2011, 2:40 PM
Post #12 of 76 (13870 views)
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Re: [base570] NPS Discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

base570 wrote:
dave wrote:
What if it were accepted, how would it be controlled? How would a place like Yosemite regulate rules & safety standards? Would it even be worth it? How much would you be willing to put up with? I think if it ever were accepted in National Parks the hassle one would have to go through to apply for permits & god knows what else would be a much bigger pain in the ass than just finding away around all of that & wait for a full moon & the right winds...

I think you are right that controlling it would be difficult. The NPS would not be the correct 'person' to regulate and issue permits in my eyes. They do not have the knowledge to be able to make correct judgment calls on conditions, skill level etc. Do you think that a jumper run entity could do a better job and mitigate the risks? Similar to Bridge Day... although I don't think that BD is a good example of BASE jumpers regulating themselves, it's more of a carnival atmosphere.

570

Kjerag does a pretty good job at this...

wwarped
Moderator
Jan 18, 2011, 2:56 PM
Post #13 of 76 (13858 views)
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Re: [lowcountryBase] NPS Discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

lowcountryBase wrote:
base570 wrote:
dave wrote:
What if it were accepted, how would it be controlled? How would a place like Yosemite regulate rules & safety standards? Would it even be worth it? How much would you be willing to put up with? I think if it ever were accepted in National Parks the hassle one would have to go through to apply for permits & god knows what else would be a much bigger pain in the ass than just finding away around all of that & wait for a full moon & the right winds...

I think you are right that controlling it would be difficult. The NPS would not be the correct 'person' to regulate and issue permits in my eyes. They do not have the knowledge to be able to make correct judgment calls on conditions, skill level etc. Do you think that a jumper run entity could do a better job and mitigate the risks? Similar to Bridge Day... although I don't think that BD is a good example of BASE jumpers regulating themselves, it's more of a carnival atmosphere.

570

Kjerag does a pretty good job at this...

they have a boat!
thus they effectively control access.
Jason's BD permit cedes him a lot of control as well. LEO's ensure he complies.

lowcountryBase

Jan 18, 2011, 3:39 PM
Post #14 of 76 (13832 views)
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Re: [wwarped] NPS Discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes..they have a boat...(thank you captain obvious)

And yes the Klubb has the upper hand. Since I want to be Major obvious; Kjerag like many of the large walls, Baffin, Angel Falls, the Cave, etc is all about logistics. Where if you jump you do not land in civilization. More of a Nature to Nature jump.

Its easy to compare Josemighty to Italy. With knowledge you can find the exit point(or hike and not find it); if you jump your back in civilization. If you don't your in nature. Which I call a Nature to Civilization jump.

In my view this is a dilemma for control...
Being a Nature to Civilization jump hurts the cause if we want it to be modeled after Kjerag.

Do all of those who are not in favor for site control think that the club controlling Kjerag is the wrong thing?

(keep in mind this discussion is primarily about the pinnacle of NPS property, and not NPS as a whole)

base428
Bridge Day Organizer
Jan 18, 2011, 4:38 PM
Post #15 of 76 (13807 views)
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Re: [base570] NPS Discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

base570 wrote:
One problem I can see in your approach has been to wait for them to respond to you.

On the contrary, one problem I see with your plan is that you appear to be attempting this alone. You should email people like Robin Heid, Jimmy/Marta Pouchert, Jason Dawson, Mick Knutson, Todd Shoebotham, Tom Aiello, Harry Parker, me, etc. I'm happy to help you as much as I can - but it's a bit soon to identify my problems via the information contained in one short forum post...

In reply to:
In your meetings with NRG officials what has been the biggest hurdle or roadblock that they are putting up?

Biggest hurdle is the system itself. By "the system", I mean the NPS's Management Policies that essentially outlaw jumping and the 30+ years of systematic permit denials (see this and this). BASE isn't legal unless performed under a permit. Even if you find a ranger who supports BASE jumping, he's risking his job by supporting you. You'll have to find a better way to influence the NPS into saying yes, and I personally think that'll likely involve lawyers and lots of money.

In reply to:
Do you have the actual permit that is issued for Bridge Day?

I've had them on the BD website since 2002. Go here: http://www.bridgeday.info/nps.php

In reply to:
although I don't think that BD is a good example of BASE jumpers regulating themselves, it's more of a carnival atmosphere.

BD is probably the MOST self-regulated BASE jumping event in the world.

In reply to:
There is no way I'm going to believe that one man cannot change things... that is a defeatist attitude.

As a jumper and organizer, I will support anyone who wants to change the system. However, by soliciting information on this forum, you are already more than "one person".

Call me if you want to chat (304-933-9330). Cya.


(This post was edited by base428 on Jan 18, 2011, 4:42 PM)

Anvilbrother

Jan 18, 2011, 7:48 PM
Post #16 of 76 (13731 views)
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Re: [base428] NPS Discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

Has there been an organized mass permit request been attempted by everyone possible all done individually, and all paperwork forwarded to everyone possible that oversees the NPS and can change such behavior and policies?

It would seem that if the NPS and the people that run above them received about 200 permit requests all at once it might bring some public attention to the right people above that did not know this BS was going on and can step down and fix it.

Martini

Jan 18, 2011, 7:54 PM
Post #17 of 76 (13728 views)
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Re: [Anvilbrother] NPS Discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

The probability of survival is equal to the angle of arrival.
In reply to:

Cute. Also bullshit.

Anvilbrother

Jan 18, 2011, 8:00 PM
Post #18 of 76 (13724 views)
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Re: [Martini] NPS Discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

Well explain why its bullshit instead of make a short useless bullshit post.

I've been on government for 20 years, there IS someone above them that can change this that just has not been aware of the situation.


(This post was edited by Anvilbrother on Jan 18, 2011, 8:02 PM)

Anvilbrother

Jan 18, 2011, 8:08 PM
Post #19 of 76 (13721 views)
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Re: [Martini] NPS Discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sorry that my signature line also did not include things like velocity, ground type, armor, fitness of the pilot. Most people read it as land wings level and not in a dive, but thanks for over analyzing the obvious....

460

Jan 18, 2011, 8:48 PM
Post #20 of 76 (13706 views)
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Re: [Anvilbrother] NPS Discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

Jean Boenish wrote an environmental impact study of jumping Yosemite. Rick Harrison assisted a bit. Would such an item be useful to resurrect?

Martini

Jan 18, 2011, 9:12 PM
Post #21 of 76 (13687 views)
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Re: [Anvilbrother] NPS Discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

Oooohhh a sore spot, poke poke. Lighten up brother. My point is that landing near vertical like sinking a BASE, accuracy or round canopy doesn't improve survivability any more than swooping or landing a paraglider. Both work well when done properly, one pretty vertical the other pretty horizontal. Ergo my calling bullshit to the cliche. Seeing as to how it's your sig line I'm not surprised that you're offended but that doesn't really bother me.


robinheid

Jan 18, 2011, 9:18 PM
Post #23 of 76 (13682 views)
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Re: [base570] NPS Discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

base570 wrote:
Thanks for all the responses so far... please continue to think about and ad to this thread.

robin wrote:
What you are missing is the magnitude of the following fundamental problems:

1) It is much easier, simpler, quicker and more enjoyable to buy a ticket to Europe and just go jump than it is to spend that time and money fighting with federal bureaucrats who either really, truly do not consider jumping in national parks to be an "appropriate" activity -- or they really, truly enjoy stomping on the rights of citizens who fall outside the defintion of herd animals.

2) The "total commitment" time frame of the average BASE jumping career is considerably shorter than a federal bureaucrat's career or the time frame necessary to achieve change in a federal bureaucracy.

3) It is too easy for individuals within the BASE jumping community who disagree with your project approach to sabotage that approach, thereby rendering moot all the time, money and heart you put into the issue, and leaving everything right where it was in the first place: at an impasse.

Best of luck with your project, but unless you figure out how to successfully address these fundamental problems, you are going nowhere.

1) You are right that it is much easier to go to Europe than to tackle the 'government'. I however enjoy a good fight and am not willing to allow them to dictate the terms in which I can enjoy my life. So I continue to explore my options.

enjoy the fight, but you'll find that most BASE jumpers would rather jump than fight.

In reply to:
2) I don't see how this argument has anything to do with it... Why does it have to be a single jumpers commitment? Why can't it be the communities commitment? Why can't one jumper change things?

You miss the point entirely. It is the life sycle of the COMMUNITY, not an individual jumper, that is shorter than the time frame necessary to maintain continuity of purpose in your project. You have to re-educate, re-orient, and re-start everything you do every couple of years or so because of this life cycle -- which takes a lot of time, energy and money to do.


In reply to:

3) It sounds as if you are holding a grudge against people you have dealt with in the past... It's unfortunate that we, as a community, can't work together on this and not let personal issues destroy the seemingly forward progress.

LOL... I hope your amateur political maneuvering is better than your amateur psychologist musings. I just reminded you of a serious process vulnerability that you face going forward, that's all... a process vulnerability that transcends BASE and me specifically. And yes, it is indeed unfortunate that this happens, but what is more unfortunate is the astonishing naivete you exhibit in this answer. NPS will eat you alive.

Best of luck, though, and keep on trying to learn. Who knows? You may indeed be the one who takes it to the tipping point and good on ya for making a go of it!

44
Cool


(This post was edited by robinheid on Jan 18, 2011, 9:27 PM)

Anvilbrother

Jan 18, 2011, 9:23 PM
Post #24 of 76 (13676 views)
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Re: [Martini] NPS Discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

No biggie, on side note that's not the exact sig line that is supposed to be in there, it's supposed to be in relation to , not equal to, just noticed. I corrected it when I wrote it initially, but years back when dropzone split the forums into a completely new website and transferred existing users automatically over it took my old sig line also, weird.

Also just saw your reply posting our pms, and my comment still stands and you just reaffirmed my suspicions that your are and idot, now let's get back to the task at hand and talk about ways we can fix the nps issue


Ooh


(This post was edited by Anvilbrother on Jan 18, 2011, 9:32 PM)

base428
Bridge Day Organizer
Jan 19, 2011, 6:42 AM
Post #25 of 76 (10739 views)
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Re: [Anvilbrother] NPS Discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

I think mass permit requests or mass jumps will only piss them off. The NPS is well aware of how many jumpers are interested in their cliffs.

Robin Heid is very much correct in saying that the life cycle of the BASE jumping activist is pretty short. Jumpers come and go pretty fast. Only a few of us have really put a lot of effort into it over the years. I'm still plugging away on legal BASE outside of BD at the NRGB, and I put a lot of work into it last year.

I was involved with the CJAA, ABP, and now the organization of Bridge Day for the last 10 years. If I were to offer advice to another jumper:

1) Research. Learn everything you can about what has been attempted in the past and what the regulations are. Call all the people listed in my first post (above).

2) Communication. Set up meetings with NPS to discuss issues. I say this because jumpers and rangers haven't had a face-to-face meeting in awhile, if ever. Show them that you're a normal person. Prepare yourself for many of the normal NPS concerns (BASE interrupts the serenity of the park, disturbs wildlife, jumpers don't follow rules, littering, etc.).

3) Planning. Have a plan ready for the kind of jumping you'd like to see in the parks. Figure out who will manage it, because it will NEED to be managed/regulated.

4) Protest. Organize a peaceful, non-jumping protest at Yosemite and other parks. Hand out literature to park visitors. Be careful not to kite your canopy in the park since others have been arrested for doing so.

5) Lawyers. When all else fails, which it likely will, then bust out your checkbook and hire an expensive lawyer. Many things in the USA only get changed via lawsuits, lobbying, etc. But you never know.....your good looks and charm may win them over, negating the need for lawyers.

6) The Ultimate Plan: Raise your kid to be a secret pro-BASE jumping ranger. Find a way for him to rise to the level of Yosemite superintendent. Have your kid issue free BASE jumping permits to all jumpers.

Good luck.

Anvilbrother wrote:
Has there been an organized mass permit request been attempted

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